• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Rate Heinlein

Piscivore

Smelling fishy
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
27,388
Location
Home is wherever I'm with you
Please feel free to expand on your answer- in your opinion what did he do right, what (if anything) did he do wrong.

Also, do you prefer his adult novels or his teen fiction?
 
I haven't read much of his work, only Starship Troopers, Stranger in a Strange Land, and the collection The Man Who Sold the Moon. I liked the novels well enough, particularly ST, but while reading the collection of short stories, I just couldn't stop myself from thinking how poorly they had aged, and that detracted a lot of the enjoyment for me.
 
I love Heinlein's work from the '40s and '50s, both the adult and juvenile but my favorites are both juveniles: Tunnel In the Sky and The Star Beast. Heinlein had a great knack for writing dialogue and for creating intriguing characters, especially strong (for the time) female characters.

I liked some of his early '60s stuff, although not as much as his previous work. While he was happier writing with less editorial direction and restriction, I think he actually produced better work (or, at least, work I enjoyed more) when he had to figure out ways around all the restrictions that were imposed in the '40s and '50s. The romances in those earlier books were a lot more fun and a lot sexier (I thought) than the more explicit stuff of Glory Road. Stranger In A Strange Land, and later.

Stranger In A Strange Land was interesting, but didn't affect me nearly as much as his previous work. And the books that followed got more and more self-indulgent. As a Heinlein addict, I struggled through Friday, Time Enough for Love, and I Will Fear No Evil, and probably one or two of his other later novels, but I'm still waiting on reading the last few he wrote.

(I would like to read the uncut version of Stranger some day, but it takes me 10 or 15 years to getting around to doing things so it will probably be another year or so on that.)
 
I put in an 8. Some of Heinlein's books are great. Some suffer from too many slide rules. Some suffer from too much preaching.
I've enjoyed all I've read, except Farnham's Freehold, but for some you have to overlook the aforementioned slide rules, or overlook or enjoy incestous and May December romances (That's May 1900 and December 2319.) and oversexed women. And of course, as with all such things, a lot depends on what you've read before, and I read a lot of Heinlein at the start of my SF-reading. I think if I read all of it now, not all of it would get as good a grade.
 
I voted 8. I don't know who I'd give a ten. Maybe Harlan Ellison in his prime.
I think his characters sex fixation is more just a metaphor for enjoying life as much as possible. The incest is just part of one of his reoccuring themes. Tabboo. When Laz has sex with his mom she says, more or less, "the only reason not to have sex with relatives is the chance you might hurt a baby." She's pregnant already so there's no chance of her getting pregnant by her son. So I think Heinlien asks: then why the ick factor?
He does the same with canniblism. A dead human is 150 lbs of meat, we eat cows, so why the ick factor. Of course he's not reccomending incest or canniblism, I think he's just commenting on tabboo.
A slightly harder to find short novel called Orphans of the Sky is one of my favorites. If you're a fan and haven't read it, I highly recomend it.
I liked: Stranger, Stormship Trooper, Time Enough for Love, The Cat that Walked Through Walls, The Puppet Masters, Job, Methusalas Children.
I didn't care for I Will Fear no Evil or To Sail Beyond the Sunset.
I also love the short stories They and All You Zombies.
They gave me one of those great bright feelings you get inside when you hit the high point of a great story.
Come to think of it, I'm going to go read it again.

This rambling brought to you by coffee.

Edited to add: I flow charted All You Zombies for a philosophy class a long time ago. It's perfect, there are no flaws in the time-line. Quite a mind on that guy.
 
I always thought most of his books went on a few chapters too long. For instance, I loved Stranger in a Strange land throughout all the "teaching Mike to be Human" stuff, but once he went off to found his own religion it lost me.

Same thing with Number of the Beast - an interesting exploration of the parallel universes idea, but once he got to a point where he was having parties with all the folks from different universes... it was like he'd played the original idea out and was casting around for something to make the book longer because he was paid by the word or something.

Plus, I find his characters tend to be fairly samey. He seems to think there are only two types of person - the "good" type who is libertarian, independant minded, largely unconcerned with the rules of society, lives by his wits in some creative field like writing, etc - and the "bad" type who is basically an unthinking leech, usually a government employee or thief of some kind. It gets old after a while.

All that said, I do enjoy most of his books quite a bit, especially some of the more juvenile stuff. I loved Starship Troopers, Have Space Suit, Starman Jones, and quite liked Stranger in a Strange Land, and Time Enough for Love.
 
Brian said:
Edited to add: I flow charted All You Zombies for a philosophy class a long time ago. It's perfect, there are no flaws in the time-line. Quite a mind on that guy.
You should check out 'By His Bootstraps', if you haven't already.
 
When he is good, he is very, very good, but when he is bad, he is horrid.
 
Piscivore said:
What would you say his biggest flaw is?

I know what I think it is, I'm interested if anyone else has picked up on it.
I would like to say that although I love Heinlien's work (mainly his juvenile works, SST being my favorite, followed by Glory Road) I would have to say his WORST book (as in almost as bad as anything written by Joel Rosenberg or Jon Norman) was Number of the Beast...
 
Average, with some very good short stories earlier in his career. (He was also quite a good fantasy short story writer.) I feel his later novels showed weaknesses in plotting and characterisation. (See Job: A Comedy of Justice for evidence!)
 
A definite 2. This man wrote "The Number of the Beast", possibly the worst science fiction novel ever. Unforgivably bad; he didn't even get the science right.

From "The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Science Fiction"...


Heinlein.jpg
 
Piscivore said:
What would you say his biggest flaw is?

I know what I think it is, I'm interested if anyone else has picked up on it.

1. He would go on for a couple of paragraphs or pages about how smart a particular character was ... just before they did something incredibly stupid, thoughtless, or asinine. As soon as you recognized the pattern, you couldn't avoid seeing it every time.



2. Many of his women characters were described as smart, independent, capable ... but almost never behaved that way.



3. Ditto for his men ...
 
My beef with him is that he loves his characters far too much.

Except for a few minor malcontents and the odd plot device in character's clothing everyone gets along famously.

Whatever conflict there is in his "adult" books are minor, trivial things to the protagonists. A full body transplant is an adventure, not a trauma. The threat of losing one's identity and fortune is an opportunity to prove one's self anew. Armed revolution is a lark to be planned over cocktails rolls in the sack.

He never allows them to fail. There is no tension, no drama, because you know that everything is always going to work out for them. Even if they appear to fail, it turns out that the guru- the older character that is hanging around the younger ones, as above- he saw it coming and The Plan required said failure.

His characters that die are either so minor and/or so underdeveloped that he (and thus we) do not care about them, or they die after finishing their "great work" and pass on quietly at the height of their triumph.

"Tunnel in the Sky" was one of my favorite books, growing up. Notwithstanding the fact that one of the characters shares my somewhat unusual name, there are wheelbarrows more actual drama in that slim volume than in all of "Harsh Mistress."
 
His juvenile novels started me on a lifelong addiction to sci-fi, and "Harse Mistress" (read as an adult) remains one of my favorites. His later stuff was irritating and pompous, but a lot of his stories were trailblazers. Despite the flops, I give him an "8" for sentimental reasons, for the high esteem he is held in by all of my favorite sci-fi authors and editors, and for those juveniles that I still remember so fondly.
 
Piscivore said:

His characters that die are either so minor and/or so underdeveloped that he (and thus we) do not care about them, or they die after finishing their "great work" and pass on quietly at the height of their triumph.

I guess you missed one of his greatest works (arguably THE greatest) in "Stranger in a Strange Land" then.

Some of the criticisms listed here are notable, but he is one of the all-time masters of sci fi. As a pure story-teller, he is hardly my favorite, but few could pack a story with such intelligence and interesting ideas as he did (even if you disagree with them, which I certainly did more than once).
 
As a kid, I loved his stuff...really set me off as a Sci-Fi fan, leading to Asimov, Zelazny, etc. I don't think a lot of it holds up particularly well, but there are still fun reads.

I think Door Into Summer is a wonderful time travel novel...lots of fun, if not particularly deep.
 
bigred said:
I guess you missed one of his greatest works (arguably THE greatest) in "Stranger in a Strange Land" then.

I have, although admittedly quite a while ago. While it is a lot better than some of his books, most of what I mentioned still applies.

bigred said:
Some of the criticisms listed here are notable, but he is one of the all-time masters of sci fi. As a pure story-teller, he is hardly my favorite, but few could pack a story with such intelligence and interesting ideas as he did (even if you disagree with them, which I certainly did more than once).

He did have a lot of brilliant ideas. I was just getting frustrated by the purile execution of those ideas after reading "Fear no evil" and "Mistress"
 
Yeah that was the thing I used to get tired of, admittedly, ie how he just overdid the "whole Heinlein thing" after awhile. Even though he had many great ideas and things to say, how he said them could wear thin.

PS although not a novel, anyone ever read his "universe" book....sort of a large collection of ramblings, predictions, stories about his life, etc.

And what was the book that was really a collection of short stories, some great stuff in there as I recall.
 

Back
Top Bottom