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Randi on YouTube

The contrast of white type against a black background hurts my eyes. I could only read a few lines. Sorry.
 
I prefer white type on a black background.

Meanwhile, I don't consider Randi to be terribly accurate when it comes to parapsychology. Fraud, deception, Nostradamus, and faith healers, sure. But he's never seemed terribly well read on the subject. He should've know that Rhine continued his work after Duke University, for a start.
 
Meanwhile, I don't consider Randi to be terribly accurate when it comes to parapsychology.


Yes.

So, there are two possibilities. Either Randi is so arrogant that he feels he doesn't need to bother being well read on the subject and is talking out of his ass...or he is in fact well read and being deliberately deceptive. Most likely the former.

Either way, he would lose credibility in my eyes if he had any to begin with.
 
I prefer white type on a black background.

Meanwhile, I don't consider Randi to be terribly accurate when it comes to parapsychology. Fraud, deception, Nostradamus, and faith healers, sure. But he's never seemed terribly well read on the subject. He should've know that Rhine continued his work after Duke University, for a start.

Did Rhine achieve success?
 
Did Rhine achieve success?


I realize your question was addressed to Ersby, but here are a few general excerpts about Rhine from a few books anyway.

"And so it was that at that time I began to explore Rhine's work, I was only vaguely aware that someone named Rhine had once done research on purportedly psychic phenomena at Duke University. Of one thing I was certain, however: that whatever the experiments had been, they'd been discredited as poorly controlled, the results discredited as well. I, like many people, knew enough to know Rhine's name and to have it solidly associated with pseudoscience - or, in a more generous mood, maybe just not very good science.

But then I'd taken the trouble to look into the actual history. I'd begun with the Rhines' scientific past and the start of their lab. I'd gone on to examine the earlier experiments. I discovered the rigor surrounding their work, a far cry from what I'd heard. And then I started examining the history of criticism around the Rhine work. I looked into what the criticisms were, how the best of them had been taken into account by the Rhines, and how other attacks were disputed, discredited, and even formally retracted. It amounted to quite a story.

[...]

It was yet another sixty years before I started asking colleagues what they knew about the Rhine research. It turned out most were like me; they'd heard of it, but dismissed it. Also like me, they thought they knew what they were dismissing. The fact was, we were all misinformed. So much for priding ourselves on judging by the evidence."

Extraordinary Knowing: Science, Skepticism, and the Inexplicable Powers of the Human Mind

__________

"Another prominent figure who was distressed with Kellogg's attack [on Rhine] was E.V. Huntington, a mathematician at Harvard. After corresponding with Rhine, Huntington decided that, rather than further confuse the public with a technical rely to Kellogg's arguments, a simple statement should be made to the effect that the mathematical issues in Rhine's work had been resolved. Huntington must have successfully convinced his former student, Burton Camp of Wesleyan, that this was a wise approach. Camp was the 1937 President of IMS (Institute of Mathematical Statistics). When the annual meetings were held in December of 1937 (jointly with AMS [American Mathematical Society] and AAAS [American Association for the Advancement of Science]), Camp released a statement to the press that read:

"Dr. Rhine's investigations have two aspects: experimental and statistical. On the experimental side mathematics, of course, has nothing to say. On the statistical side, however, recent mathematical work has established the fact that, assuming that the experiments have been properly performed, the statistical analysis is essentially valid. If the Rhine investigation is to be fairly attacked, it must be on other than mathematical grounds." [Camp, 1937].​

The Parapsychology Revolution: A Concise Anthology of Paranormal and Psychical Research

__________

"While work continued at Duke - the team began precognition experiments in 1934 as well as psychokinesis studies, the latter being kept very quiet - other researchers began to report some success using Rhine's methods. Word came of successful replications at Tarkio (Missouri) College, Bard College in New York State, and from England. Word also arrived that a young German researcher, Hans Bender, had conducted a successful series of clairvoyance experiments, which Rhine regarded as an independent corroboration of his own work. As momentum built, Rhine was able to secure additional funding, and more researchers joined the team.

[...]

Criticism also focused on the question of whether all sensory cues really had been excluded. Critics quickly noticed that the cards in some early commercially produced ESP decks could be read from the back because of the printing impression. But these were not the same cards that had been used in the early Duke testing, and of course the problem did not exist in the many experiments in which the subject was not permitted to see even the back of the cards. This did not stop some critics form trying to portray the entire body of results as worthless, however."

Parapsychology: The Controversial Science

__________

"Psychologists sketched all manner of scenarios in which Rhine, his colleagues, and their subjects variously were depicted to have engaged in collusion to yield significant data, to fudge (distort) the data, or to construct entirely fictitious data. Over the ensuing years as more and more researchers in laboratories around the world performed statistically significant ESP experiments this argument became increasingly tenuous. As Eysenck (1957, pp. 131-132) asks, Why should dozens of academics engage in an international conspiracy of such proportions? If they achieve anything at all it is only to put their careers in jeopardy."

An Introduction to Parapsychology

__________

"As for concerns about the quality of the experiments, philosopher Fiona Steinkamp has analyzed the Rhine-era ESP card tests in detail. She found that as controls improved against such potential problems as sensory cues, recording errors, and investigator fraud the results did decline slightly, but even the most highly controlled studies had odds against chance of 375 trillion to 1."

Entangled Minds: Extrasensory Experiences in a Quantum Reality
 
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I've always wondered, since these effects are so strong and easily replicated, why parapsychologists don't simply answer their critics with robust demonstrations of the effects? It seems a much simpler task than endless whining, special pleading, and conspiracy-mongering.

Is it possible that parapsychologists do not actually desire scientific legitimacy? Is this a ruse, a red herring, intended to throw a screen over their real intentions? If so, what are they really after? Is it that they realize that they would have no special status once their work is absorbed into the mainstreams? Radin's books would be reduced to one-twentieth of their original size if he no longer had to provide tortuous explanations for why scientists don't take it seriously. And Oprah doesn't seem to have a thing for plain old scientists.

Linda
 
fls,

reminds me of this Zammit clown that, among other things, argues in a book for advances in Remote Vision, but governments keep it... SECRET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How's that even possible?
 
The contrast of white type against a black background hurts my eyes. I could only read a few lines. Sorry.

I knew my wasted years playing MMORPGs would come in handy some day.

(those games have a tendency to layout their forums light on black.)
 
I've always wondered, since these effects are so strong and easily replicated, why parapsychologists don't simply answer their critics with robust demonstrations of the effects? It seems a much simpler task than endless whining, special pleading, and conspiracy-mongering.

Is it possible that parapsychologists do not actually desire scientific legitimacy? Is this a ruse, a red herring, intended to throw a screen over their real intentions? If so, what are they really after? Is it that they realize that they would have no special status once their work is absorbed into the mainstreams? Radin's books would be reduced to one-twentieth of their original size if he no longer had to provide tortuous explanations for why scientists don't take it seriously. And Oprah doesn't seem to have a thing for plain old scientists.

Linda


I've always wondered, exactly who (if anyone) refused to look through Galileo's telescope. I mean, it would have been so simple to look through the damn thing already. Cowards.

I've also wondered...if anyone did look and then actually denied what they saw. What was going through the mind of one like that? Worries about precious pride? Preserving the status quo? Their authority? Their reputation? Their personal belief system?

Weak-minded, short-sighted, selfish fools.

"Build it and they will come" indeed.

Human weakness sucks.

But maybe I'm too harsh.
 
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Did Rhine achieve success?

I'd have to err on the side of "no". Rhine's attitude to not publishing negative results, and not publicising examples of fraud in the field means his results can't be taken at face value.
 
I've always wondered, exactly who (if anyone) refused to look through Galileo's telescope. I mean, it would have been so simple to look through the damn thing already. Cowards.

I've also wondered...if anyone did look and then actually denied what they saw. What was going through the mind of one like that? Worries about precious pride? Preserving the status quo? Their authority? Their reputation? Their personal belief system?

Weak-minded, short-sighted, selfish fools.

"Build it and they will come" indeed.

Human weakness sucks.

But maybe I'm too harsh.

Is this meant to be associated in some way to Linda's query about the claims of strong and easily replicated effects in paraphsychology?
 
I've always wondered, exactly who (if anyone) refused to look through Galileo's telescope. I mean, it would have been so simple to look through the damn thing already. Cowards.

I've also wondered...if anyone did look and then actually denied what they saw. What was going through the mind of one like that? Worries about precious pride? Preserving the status quo? Their authority? Their reputation? Their personal belief system?

Weak-minded, short-sighted, selfish fools.

"Build it and they will come" indeed.

Human weakness sucks.

But maybe I'm too harsh.

That's a nice example. We see rapid acceptance of Gallileo's observations despite worries about preserving the status quo and authority that dwarfs anything seen amongst scientists. How would he have fared if others couldn't see what he saw?

Linda
 
That's a nice example. We see rapid acceptance of Gallileo's observations despite worries about preserving the status quo and authority that dwarfs anything seen amongst scientists. How would he have fared if others couldn't see what he saw?

Linda


Rapid? Well, I'm no expert but it's my understanding that the victory of heliocentricity was a complex process, effected not by any one crucial observation but by gradual assimilation. Galileo brought the matter out in the open in 1610 with Sidereus nuncius. Despite opposition, heliocentricity was not RULED OUT, the way that the western scientific community RULES OUT psi. Perhaps modern western science is more against psi than the old church was against heliocentricity?

The acceptance of psi will likewise be a gradual process. Science "advances funeral by funeral". The 'old guard' of the reigning paradigm will die off eventually, and a new generation...one more open to new paradigms...will rise.
 
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Well, considerably less than 127 years. :)

Despite opposition, heliocentricity was not RULED OUT, the way that the western scientific community RULES OUT psi.

You're right. There was much stronger opposition to heliocentricity.

The acceptance of psi will likewise be a gradual process. Science "advances funeral by funeral". The 'old guard' of the reigning paradigm will die off eventually, and a new generation...one more open to new paradigms...will rise.

It's been 127 years. Surely there have been more than a few deaths during that time period?

You and the other apologists can't really expect us to take these excuses seriously. I'm becoming more and more convinced that you're hiding something.

Linda
 
Well, considerably less than 127 years. :)



You're right. There was much stronger opposition to heliocentricity.



It's been 127 years. Surely there have been more than a few deaths during that time period?

You and the other apologists can't really expect us to take these excuses seriously. I'm becoming more and more convinced that you're hiding something.

Linda


I'm becoming more and more convinced that you're a bit paranoid, Linda.
 
Despite opposition, heliocentricity was not RULED OUT, the way that the western scientific community RULES OUT psi. Perhaps modern western science is more against psi than the old church was against heliocentricity?

So the more science opposes a theory, the more probable the truthiness? This is a great line of reasoning! Perhaps "modern western science"(what?..) is more against the flying spaghetti monster than the old church was against heliocentricity? Then it proves the truthiness of the great FSM. (no blasphemy intended..)

Science is also a little more against ghosts than my old grandmother was against microwave ovens and color tvs. Hmmm.. I'm starting to see a chaotic nonpattern of reasoning. Do you ever listen to yourself?

The acceptance of psi will likewise be a gradual process. Science "advances funeral by funeral". The 'old guard' of the reigning paradigm will die off eventually, and a new generation...one more open to new paradigms...will rise.

Why will it likewise be a "gradual process"? I don't remember Einstein complaining about how narrow minded his critics were, and how it would be a gradual process over hundreds of years. I don't see people at Fermilab or at CERN nagging on the narrowminded critics. They simply provide evidence.

It pains me to hear this constant chorus on how the critics have not read every publication to its last deluded detail. I'm not interested in apologies. I don't actually have to read every religious text on earth to form an opinion. This is just hogwash, sorry to say.

Put up or shut up, limbo.
 
...The acceptance of psi will likewise be a gradual process. Science "advances funeral by funeral". The 'old guard' of the reigning paradigm will die off eventually, and a new generation...one more open to new paradigms...will rise.

I've been following this research for about 50 years and I see no evidence in an increase in the acceptance of "psi" in the scientific community. If anything, the opposite trend seems to be the case, probably due to the rarity of replicable effects.
 

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