Randi nonsense

[Piggy]

It would be most helpful if Randi or the JREF could issue a statement with regards to any exact replications of experiments they feel are acceptable as successful challenges.

It would be most helpful if someone would apply, thereby making such an effort not a waste of their time.

 

[davidsmith73]

Previous experiments are irrelevant to the challenge. And there is no point in bugging Randi, asking him to go check things out for you. That's not his job. If you'd like to apply, using Sheldrake's protocol, then do it. At that point, people who do have that job will review the protocol.

I'm not in a position to apply. I want to see a commitment on JREF's part before Sheldrake applies as to whether his current stats and protocol are acceptable. Its the JREF's challenge so they should clearly state what is acceptable and what is not.

 

[davidsmith73]

It would be most helpful if someone would apply, thereby making such an effort not a waste of their time.

What about the waste of time for the parapsychologist when his experiment is rejected? Not to mention the bad press when the JREF cries "he's backed out! we knew he would!"

 

[Piggy]

Which is why no parapsychologist will apply! The JREF makes it known that their stance is that there is currently no evidence for ESP and the like. Why would a parapsychologist apply for a challenge where he suspects the standard of results will be too high for his experiment to succeed?

If anyone suspects the standards will be too high, they only have to submit a protocol and sit down with the JREF folks, and see if they come to an agreement or not. It really is that simple.

You're just being paranoid and lazy.

 

[Piggy]

What about the waste of time for the parapsychologist when his experiment is rejected? Not to mention the bad press when the JREF cries "he's backed out! we knew he would!"

Paranoia

 

[Piggy]

I want to see a commitment on JREF's part before Sheldrake applies as to whether his current stats and protocol are acceptable.

Laziness

 

[davidsmith73]

If anyone suspects the standards will be too high, they only have to submit a protocol and sit down with the JREF folks, and see if they come to an agreement or not. It really is that simple.

You're just being paranoid and lazy.

The protocol is already there complete to the satisfaction of Sheldrake and freely available for the JREF to read at their leisure. There's no need it to be submitted officially for the JREF to evaluate it.

The ball is really in JREF's court if they think Sheldrake is eligible for the prize.

 

[davidsmith73]

Paranoia

Understandable caution

 

[Piggy]

There's no need it to be submitted officially for the JREF to evaluate it.

Yes, there is. Y'know why? Because these are real people with real lives and other things to do.

You want to know if it's acceptable as-is? Then follow the frickin' procedure.

You want other people to take time out to evaluate a protocol which is not even on their desk. It's a waste of their time. Get real.

 

[davidsmith73]

Laziness

An appeal for openness and tranparency

 

[davidsmith73]

Yes, there is. Y'know why? Because these are real people with real lives and other things to do.

You want to know if it's acceptable as-is? Then follow the frickin' procedure.

You want other people to take time out to evaluate a protocol which is not even on their desk. It's a waste of their time. Get real.

So why is Randi exclaming that the JREF accepts Sheldrakes claim?! This clearly must be based on his experiments. So Randi can't really do that then sit back and wait for Sheldrake to submit his protocol with the risk that it won't be accepted. The JREF must cleary state on what basis they accept the claim

 

[Piggy]

An appeal for openness and tranparency

An appeal for other people to do work for you when it has nothing to do with anything on their plate.

What would happen if JREF started accepting requests to evaluate protocols which are not connected with any application? They'd spend all their time running around on wild goose chases.

That's not their job.

These people have lives.

Now stop bugging Randi and start considering the implications of what you're asking other folks to do.

 

[CFLarsen]

I understand what you're saying all right. I just think its unnecessary.

There is nothing to work out. Sheldrake already has the experimental protocol. I would like to see Randi state cleary whether this protocol is acceptable (including trial number) and what effect size and p-value would be acceptable for such a protocol as evidence for a paranormal effect.

Its that simple. Then you can start accusing the parapsychologists of ignoring the challenge. Because, as it stands, there effectively is no challenge! Neither party are willing to commit!

Why should JREF spend resources on Sheldrake's claim, if Sheldrake hasn't even applied yet?

Is it because Sheldrake is famous? That would be grossly unfair to other applicants.

Do you have any indication that Sheldrake will apply at all? If not, why should JREF spend resources on this?

 

[Piggy]

So why is Randi exclaming that the JREF accepts Sheldrakes claim?! This clearly must be based on his experiments. So Randi can't really do that then sit back and wait for Sheldrake to submit his protocol with the risk that it won't be accepted. The JREF must cleary state on what basis they accept the claim

Go back and read my post regarding "claim".

 

[Rasmus]

Which is why no parapsychologist will apply! The JREF makes it known that their stance is that there is currently no evidence for ESP and the like.

And only a complete idiot would assume that this meant the JREF has read and evaluated every single shred of paper on the subject and rated the expected success of every single experiment in a potential JREF trial.

Everybody else would understand this as a claim of opinion and - duh- a challenge to go on and prove the JREF wrong.

Why would a parapsychologist apply for a challenge where he suspects the standard of results will be too high for his experiment to succeed?

Because he might be less than just a complete idiot (a bit of a stretch, I admit) and simply write a single, simple e-mail with a straight forward claim in it as to what he can do!

I have done harder things, to do more difficult stuff that would have been less rewarding both personally and financially.

A solution would be if the JREF makes it clear which exact replications of current psi experiments they would accept.

You must be joking!

 

[CFLarsen]

Its in both courts. Randi has said that he accepts Sheldrakes claim. The only claim sheldrake has made is to draw conclusions from his experiment. Therefore it is the experiment which must be the basis of the claim. Since his experimental method and stats are freely available, it would seem fairly straighforward to get a clear answer from Randi concerning its validity, but I dont think I have.

Rubbish. The only thing that is needed is for Sheldrake to apply.

That's it. Everything else follows from that. But the ball is in Sheldrake's court.

 

[Rasmus]

The protocol is already there complete to the satisfaction of Sheldrake and freely available for the JREF to read at their leisure.

at their leisure indeed.

So what if nobody over at the JREF feels like wasting their free time on reading it?

Why should they?

There's no need it to be submitted officially for the JREF to evaluate it.

No, not if anyone at the JREF felt it would be a good idea to evalute this random paper. Apparently, nobody feels this way. So if you want to see it evaluated, you'll have to wait until a claim is submitted.

The ball is really in JREF's court if they think Sheldrake is eligible for the prize.

Not at all, as long as Sheldrake doesn't even indicate he wants the prize, or what for he wants it.

 

[Darat]

apologies to those I haven't relpied to yet. This thread moves too fast for me.



I understand what you're saying all right. I just think its unnecessary.

There is nothing to work out. Sheldrake already has the experimental protocol. I would like to see Randi state cleary whether this protocol is acceptable (including trial number) and what effect size and p-value would be acceptable for such a protocol as evidence for a paranormal effect.

Its that simple. Then you can start accusing the parapsychologists of ignoring the challenge. Because, as it stands, there effectively is no challenge! Neither party are willing to commit!

Not correct.

The Challenge is there, there is a million dollars just sat there to back up the Challenge, the Challenge is open for business and is waiting for applicants, it is Sheldrake that chooses not to apply for the Challenge and his reason for choosing not to take part has nothing to do with any doubts of p-values or effect sizes.

 

[Darat]

Sheldrakes paper is freely available on his website, complete with a pretty detailed protocol.

So are (probably) thousands of other such "papers" - is the JREF meant to sift though them all? That is unreasonable. The evidence is quite overwhelming that if an applicant submits their claim then the JREF will discuss protocols and attempt to come up with a mutually agreed Challenge.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

The ball is really in JREF's court if they think Sheldrake is eligible for the prize.

Nope the JREF has already made the Challenge, and backed it with a million dollars.

It's there waiting, the gauntlet has already been thrown down it is Sheldrake that will not take up the Challenge.

If Sheldrake wants a million dollars and he has confidence in his claim (e.g. that people have paranormal powers) then there is no reason for him not apply for the challenge.

Since he won't my conclusion is that he does not have confidence in his claims.