Ramesh Ponnuru on Cain's imbecilic "9-9-9" tax plan

[varwoche]

These religous nuts are so Darwinian.

 

[mhaze]

I think he meant income tax. And if he had specified income tax, he'd be right. But of course there's a good reason for that which he's ignoring. According to PolitiFact:

The main reason is that the U.S. employs the tax system not just to collect funds but to distribute them as well.

Bob Williams, a tax policy specialist at the nonpartisan Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center, said this is largely carried out through popular tax breaks, which are sometimes called "tax expenditures."

"There are lots and lots of them," he said. "We estimate they total more than a trillion dollars a year in reduced taxes, and in fact the bulk of those go to the top end of the income distribution."

However, because high earners have so much income liability, the breaks they get still don’t lower their taxes to zero. By contrast, popular lower- and middle-income breaks such as child credits and mortgage interest deductions do get a big share of the population off the hook.​

So actually the rich get a lot more tax expenditures than the poor, but have more income to offset them and therefore end up paying taxes whereas the poor don't have the income to offset the tax expenditures they get.

If AlBell and others want the bottom 50% to pay taxes, then they should probably advocate measures that close the ever increasing income gap between the rich and poor so that the poor will make enough money to pay taxes. Or the government could potentially come up with a mechanism by which to disperse expenditures that's separate from taxes, but of course that would be expensive and wouldn't actually accomplish anything.

-Bri

Actually, no. And all you've done is prove the initial premise - that 47% pay no income taxes and 53% pay all of them.

The tax code gets immmensely complex when it doubles as a charity systlem and/or a benefity-this-or-that-group system. Like what we call in engineering a system with "two design points".

You might know of a few of them?

• The combination boat - car.
  
• The combination car - airplane.
  
• The combination pistol - knife.

Well, they didn't work out so well.

 

[Unabogie]

Actually, no. And all you've done is prove the initial premise - that 47% pay no income taxes and 53% pay all of them.

The tax code gets immmensely complex when it doubles as a charity systlem and/or a benefity-this-or-that-group system. Like what we call in engineering a system with "two design points".

You might know of a few of them?

• The combination boat - car.
• The combination car - airplane.
• The combination pistol - knife.

Well, they didn't work out so well.

Did you not read the link I provided? The 47% figure is not accurate.

 

[excaza]

• The combination boat - car.
  
• The combination car - airplane.
  
• The combination pistol - knife.

Well, they didn't work out so well.

http://www.bostonducktours.com/
http://www.terrafugia.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet

 

[Unabogie]

Here's another link with some good information about just who is paying the taxes.

http://wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_want_you_to_know_about_taxes.html

 

[Neally]

Did you not read the link I provided? The 47% figure is not accurate.

"51 percent of all households, which includes filers and non-filers, had either zero or negative income tax liability for tax year 2009. The committee also found that 30 percent of tax units actually made money off the income tax system for the 2009 tax year." -http://www.accountingtoday.com/news/Over-Half-Households-Paid-No-Income-Taxes-58240-1.html?ET=webcpa:e1444:84727a:&st=email&utm_source=editorial&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=WebCPA_Daily_050411

 

[Unabogie]

"51 percent of all households, which includes filers and non-filers, had either zero or negative income tax liability for tax year 2009. The committee also found that 30 percent of tax units actually made money off the income tax system for the 2009 tax year." -http://www.accountingtoday.com/news...medium=email&utm_campaign=WebCPA_Daily_050411

Did you not read either of the links I provided? That 47% is not accurate.

 

[Neally]

Did you not read either of the links I provided? That 47% is not accurate.

Yes, I read them. The quote I gave is the definitive answer provided by the Congressional nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Hmmm... someone on my facebook friends list posted something similar in the past week...

I kind of laughed a bit when I heard it. I had to dust off my old Sim City 4 and play it awhile to make sure it was true. Then yahoo wrote an article on the subject. I just couldn't believe Herman was getting advice from games. A true utilitarian, are no ideas outside of this man’s brilliant reach?

 

[Vorticity]

"51 percent of all households, which includes filers and non-filers, had either zero or negative income tax liability for tax year 2009. The committee also found that 30 percent of tax units actually made money off the income tax system for the 2009 tax year." -http://www.accountingtoday.com/news/Over-Half-Households-Paid-No-Income-Taxes-58240-1.html?ET=webcpa:e1444:84727a:&st=email&utm_source=editorial&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=WebCPA_Daily_050411

Did you not read either of the links I provided? That 47% is not accurate.

Yes, I read them. The quote I gave is the definitive answer provided by the Congressional nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation.

Your link concerns federal income tax.

To which taxes do Unabogie's links refer?

 

[Newtons Bit]

Yes, I read them. The quote I gave is the definitive answer provided by the Congressional nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation.

You're providing numbers on income tax liability. Most people with zero income tax liability still pay payroll taxes.

 

[Bri]

Did you not read the link I provided? The 47% figure is not accurate.

If you're referring to federal income taxes, it is a fairly accurate figure.

-Bri

 

[Unabogie]

Yes, I read them. The quote I gave is the definitive answer provided by the Congressional nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation.

And it completely ignores who is not paying the tax. Some of those households are so poor that the EITC, which was Reagan's idea, kicks in. Reagan cut social programs and replaced them with tax credits. Back then this was considered "conservative". So now you're trying to take away the tax credits as well. I get that.

But it also ignores other taxes, like sales taxes, gas taxes, payroll taxes, and state taxes. Your link attempts to gloss over these other taxes and make it sound as if half the county does not pay into the system, which is false.

Also, according to the report you linked to, there is no table of income distribution among the non payers. It also says it includes "non-filers". Who are the non-filers? It doesn't say. Who are those with zero liability? It doesn't' say. So although the figure appears to prove "poor people pay no taxes", the link you provided does not support this. The link I provided shows that rich people, such as hedge fund managers, do not pay income tax on their earnings.

 

[Random]

"51 percent of all households, which includes filers and non-filers, had either zero or negative income tax liability for tax year 2009. The committee also found that 30 percent of tax units actually made money off the income tax system for the 2009 tax year." -http://www.accountingtoday.com/news/Over-Half-Households-Paid-No-Income-Taxes-58240-1.html?ET=webcpa:e1444:84727a:&st=email&utm_source=editorial&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=WebCPA_Daily_050411

Only half of all households pay Federal Income Tax, but Federal Income Tax represents less than a quarter of all taxes paid in the US. Between gas taxes, sales taxes, state taxes, local taxes, property taxes, Social Security tax, Medicare tax, etc, you pretty much have to live in a cave eating bugs to avoid paying taxes in the US.

Sure, when you pin conservative pundits down they will clarify that virtually everyone pays some kind of taxes, but they will always put forward that little shiny "half of Americans pay no Federal Income taxes" soundbite, and if people leave out the "Federal" or the "Income" thats not really their fault is it?

 

[Bri]

Actually, no. And all you've done is prove the initial premise - that 47% pay no income taxes and 53% pay all of them.

I wasn't refuting the initial premise at all since I agree with you on the numbers.

The tax code gets immmensely complex when it doubles as a charity systlem and/or a benefity-this-or-that-group system.

Here I disagree. It would be much more complex, inefficient, and costly (thus increasing the debt) to have two separate systems and the end result would be the same.

My point that you seem to be conveniently ignoring is that what you call "charity" mostly goes to the rich.

-Bri

 

[mhaze]

I kind of laughed a bit when I heard it. I had to dust off my old Sim City 4 and play it awhile to make sure it was true. Then yahoo wrote an article on the subject. I just couldn't believe Herman was getting advice from games. A true utilitarian, are no ideas outside of this man’s brilliant reach?

Next thing you'll be laughing at the idea of an army of 21 year olds who've been playing Call of Duty for ten years.

That road, don't go down....

 

[mhaze]

I wasn't refuting the initial premise at all since I agree with you on the numbers.



Here I disagree. It would be much more complex, inefficient, and costly (thus increasing the debt) to have two separate systems and the end result would be the same.

My point that you seem to be conveniently ignoring is that what you call "charity" mostly goes to the rich.

-Bri

Except you've already got the complex, inefficient and costly double system, because you ALSO have the entitlement give away operations. As for whether "charity" goes to the rich, as I noted earlier....

If you want a tax system that gives away special privileges for special groups, because you want some of that cool free stuff, don't be complaining when you don't like some of those OTHER groups that get special free cool stuff.

 

[mhaze]

Only half of all households pay Federal Income Tax, but Federal Income Tax represents less than a quarter of all taxes paid in the US. Between gas taxes, sales taxes, state taxes, local taxes, property taxes, Social Security tax, Medicare tax, etc, you pretty much have to live in a cave eating bugs to avoid paying taxes in the US.

Sure, when you pin conservative pundits down they will clarify that virtually everyone pays some kind of taxes, but they will always put forward that little shiny "half of Americans pay no Federal Income taxes" soundbite, and if people leave out the "Federal" or the "Income" thats not really their fault is it?

Oh, so now we are going to broaden the sweep to include state and local taxes? Why? So you can complain a bit?

Naw, hauncho, it don't work that way. The discussion is about the 47% that don't pay federal income taxes. So you stand how on that?

Ready for some of that cool, free stuff?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The discussion is about the 47% that don't pay federal income taxes.

I think you're a little hazy on which thread you're talking about. This one is about Cain's radical tax overhaul proposal.

The one you seem want to limit discussion to is this one:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221739

 

[Spindrift]

Naw, hauncho, it don't work that way. The discussion is about the 47% that don't pay federal income taxes. So you stand how on that?

This is what started this part of the discussion.

Subsidy payments increase taxable income.

And there is no good reason nearly half of the US taxpayer base should pay no tax.

It just says that half of the US taxpayer base pays no taxes. Which is patently false.

And I'm fine that the 47% of Americans who don't make much income, like the elderly and disabled, don't pay any Federal income tax.