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Ralph Nader Challenges Google to Hold Presidential Debates

Nader needs to go soak his head.

Maybe I can get into the debates as well. I have roughly the same statistical support, and if people would just hear my positions I'm sure I would win 98% of the vote in the general election as a write-in candidate because I'm right about everything so the corrupt two party system conspires against the simple truth.

etc.
 
I'd also like to see mandates on the media to give at least some face time to third-party candidates.
Screw that. They get all the youtube videos they can make, for free. Not the media's fault that his youtube channel has only a few thousand views.

Let's face it, he's just not that popular. Because people don't like him. Or his ideas. Or anything about him really.
 
I look forward to seeing who gets more votes, Nader or Barr.

(Thank Odin for the small pleasures.)
 
Screw that. They get all the youtube videos they can make, for free. Not the media's fault that his youtube channel has only a few thousand views.

Let's face it, he's just not that popular. Because people don't like him. Or his ideas. Or anything about him really.

Who's "him"? Oh Nader. As I said I don't care about him and dislike him. I'm saying it would be good (and fair) for third-party candidates to have a mainstream media platform. Nader has nothing to do with it (except he's a third-party candidate) and I wish he'd leave politics altogether.

I'm just guessing the vast majority of voters are fairly casual, in that they'll accept CNN/MSNBC/Fox/ABC/CBS/NBC as their sole political source, or similar websites, that never, ever, not once mention even who the libertarian candidate is (I have no idea, unless it's still Bednarik). It's impossible for them to dislike that candidate's ideas if they don't know what those ideas are.

Suddenly said:
Maybe I can get into the debates as well. I have roughly the same statistical support, and if people would just hear my positions I'm sure I would win 98% of the vote in the general election as a write-in candidate because I'm right about everything so the corrupt two party system conspires against the simple truth.

Your 0 votes and 0% is roughly the same as 2004 third-party candidates' 1,000,000 and 1%? Or 2000's 3.7%?

But yeah, go for it, rally support, get donations or use your own money or finagle something with campaign financing and get on the stage. Oh, no, not that stage in the middle of that enormous auditorium. The one over there, yeah in the alley, the wooden pallet.
 
Nader is a multi-millionaire. If he's not a corporation, he's too stupid to be elected for anything.
 
Let's face it, he's just not that popular. Because people don't like him. Or his ideas. Or anything about him really.

You don't like his ideas, huh?
That's interesting, because "most people" don't even know what his ideas are.
What are some of Ralph Nader's ideas that you don't like? (I'm talking platform here, not something like "the idea that he can get elected, hurr hurr")
 
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Google is a corporation too. :rolleyes:

So what? I don't think Nader's ever said we should abolish corporations.

We wouldn't have the standard of living we do or the cornucopia of amazingly cheap mass-produced products available without them. I'll bet the computer you wrote this on was made by a corporation.

Yup, and I paid money for it, too.
Corporations are not charities.
They produce goods and services, and the consumers pay for them.

And their power is actually very limited. There are anti-monopoly laws, for example, which prevent the worst sorts of abuses.

Limited to control of Washington.
 
Nader needs to go soak his head.

Maybe I can get into the debates as well. I have roughly the same statistical support, and if people would just hear my positions I'm sure I would win 98% of the vote in the general election as a write-in candidate because I'm right about everything so the corrupt two party system conspires against the simple truth.

etc.

It's interesting that whenever you bring up Nader, the discussion will go in one of two directions:
A) Third parties have no viability in US politics, or
B) He "stole" the election in 2000

How about: why hasn't the Internet's increased access to information and communication translated into a better democracy? How can Google get the two major candidates to debate third parties?

You know, questions raised by the video...
 
Or C) He's a washed-up paranoiac.

How would we recognize a better democracy? Do all the newly registered voters qualify as an improvement? How would we trace that back to the internet? How about the fact that fear-mongering Luddites like Nader are finally being exposed? Does that count as an improvement?

It's not Google's responsibility to provide Nader air-time. He's not requesting a debate for any third-party candidate, he's asking for a debate that includes HIM. Make no mistake there. It's all about Ralphie.

If a significant number of the electorate cared about this guy or his paranoid ideas, the major candidates would have to debate hm. In fact, he would be a major candidate. So, there's your answer. No one cares. Google can't make anyone care about this guy.

Does Ralph have any evidence at all that government agencies are controlled by corporations? I've never seen it. I've spent a lot of time talking to government regulators. If that premise were true, Jack Abramoff would not be in jail. There would be no need for Jack Abromoffs. If Ralph can estiablish his premise by a preponderance of the evidence, I'll vote for him. I believe most of the electorate would as well. I think all he has is a tired old dog that won't hunt anymore.
 
Axiom, explain why Nader is so unpopular on the political left if he is such a great spokesman for the Left Wing point of view.
 
It's interesting that whenever you bring up Nader, the discussion will go in one of two directions:
A) Third parties have no viability in US politics, or
B) He "stole" the election in 2000
Funny how relevant information tends to jump into discussions. That third parties don't work in American politics is a result of simple game theory created by a winner take all system. Rational behavior results in coalition building. The names of the parties may change, or the positions may change, but in the end it becomes two parties.
How about: why hasn't the Internet's increased access to information and communication translated into a better democracy? How can Google get the two major candidates to debate third parties?
Who says it hasn't? You? Our electorate is better informed than any electorate in history. Nader can make all the Youtube clips he wants, his followers can reach way more people over the internet now, and a full description of the positions of each candidate is but a few mouseclicks away.

Many of these third party movements that used to whine about access have had now for some time a level of access unparallelled in history. The result is that after a little spike in interest because of novelty, reality has set in that the problem with these movements isn't exposure, it is that the ideas and people behind them are of poor quality. Any decent position with support will be picked up by a major party as a means of coalition building.

Forcing legitimate candidates to debate silly fools would be a transition to a worse democracy, not a better one. It is just a continuation of the common myth that "the average person" would embrace third party principles were these people exposed to them.
 
Our electorate is better informed than any electorate in history.

Maybe. It has better access to information. Doesn't mean it uses it more than it has in the past. A citizen may have declined to walk to campaign headquarters buildings 100 years ago, he may have preferred to just read the newspaper. Similarly they may decline to search for candidates on the 'net. It's surprising for example how many hard-core political junkies on various forums haven't even bothered to go to each major party candidate's website and look through the platforms.

Hardcore supporters may tend to limit their information, preferring to only get their news from their chosen liberal/conservative media machine. They may avoid any objective news or simply refuse to seek it out because they see it as subjective and biased.

Many of these third party movements that used to whine about access have had now for some time a level of access unparallelled in history. The result is that after a little spike in interest because of novelty, reality has set in that the problem with these movements isn't exposure, it is that the ideas and people behind them are of poor quality. Any decent position with support will be picked up by a major party as a means of coalition building.

Yes, but in order for that position to be known it has to be seen by the electorate. Have you gone to each third-party website?

Forcing legitimate candidates to debate silly fools would be a transition to a worse democracy, not a better one. It is just a continuation of the common myth that "the average person" would embrace third party principles were these people exposed to them.

Candidates in each major party's primary elections debate silly fools in the early stages of that process.

I'm not a supporter of that myth, nor do I think third-parties would win a Presidential election. It would be amazing if they even got a single Electoral Vote (that wasn't an unfaithful elector). But they have won local congressional elections in the past. Some parties are fairly venerable, they've demonstrated continued support, and deserve to have a greater profile than literally 0% of major media coverage. And deserve to be on each state's ballot in November, not just 30 or 40.

I'm no third-party revolutionist, I just think the major media is far too influential to completely ignore them without criticism. And if criticism doesn't work, I'd advocate legislation similar to equal-broadcast laws for the two parties in some areas. (which should be proportional for third-parties or independent candidates).
 
Axiom, explain why Nader is so unpopular on the political left if he is such a great spokesman for the Left Wing point of view.

His unpopularity is a result of a massive Democrat smear campaign, which they started when he ran in 2004. (It probably goes back further than that, I can't be sure.)

Most people on the left actually agree with all (or most) of his positions, they just hate him for being a "spoiler".

Compare Nader in 2000 with Nader in 2004. Pundits like Michael Moore, who had campaigned for Nader, completely changed their tune, and were instead begging people not to vote for him.
 


Please! Americans! Stop using "left" to describe anything more liberal than JP Morgan or Herbert Hoover.

The "left" as you think of it in the USA is not left at all. Every election, the Democrats call anyone a hair's breadth right of their position a reactionary, and the Republicans refer to anyone a hair's breadth left of their position a lefty or socialist.
 
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1108548351c8bddf23.jpg

Please! Americans! Stop using "left" to describe anything more liberal than JP Morgan or Herbert Hoover.

The "left" as you think of it in the USA is not left at all. Every election, the Democrats call anyone a hair's breadth right of their position a reactionary, and the Republicans refer to anyone a hair's breadth left of their position a lefty or socialist.

Not that we on what passes for the left in America don't have our slang terms for the other side, but it's been awhile since I've heard 'reactionary'
 
Not that we on what passes for the left in America don't have our slang terms for the other side, but it's been awhile since I've heard 'reactionary'


I'm a product of my generation. It was a real popular term for Barry Goldwater.... Liberal thinking: Hmm, how can I say more conservative than conservative? Nope, don't want to say fascist, that's too extreme.... Oooh, I know get me a thesaurus...

And they came up with "reactionary".

Interesting that back then we hadn't yet gotten into the serious hate-mongering and mud-calling of the VN War generation, so it would've thought to be in poor taste to exaggerate and call Goldwater a fascist. Today, anyone can win the title in an instant - just question a liberal.

(His advert/slogan was "In your heart, you know he's right." The button we wore in Greenwich village was "In you heart, you know he's right. Yeah! Too far right.")
 
Interesting that back then we hadn't yet gotten into the serious hate-mongering and mud-calling of the VN War generation, so it would've thought to be in poor taste to exaggerate and call Goldwater a fascist. Today, anyone can win the title in an instant - just question a liberal.

Since your original statement referred to Democrats specifically, it's wrong as it stands. Yes, the Progressive Labor Party will throw around the word "fascist" a lot. But Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are too busy arguing over whether it's Iran or Pakistan that should be bombed and invaded to spend any time calling Bush a "reactionary."
 
Maybe. It has better access to information. Doesn't mean it uses it more than it has in the past. A citizen may have declined to walk to campaign headquarters buildings 100 years ago, he may have preferred to just read the newspaper. Similarly they may decline to search for candidates on the 'net. It's surprising for example how many hard-core political junkies on various forums haven't even bothered to go to each major party candidate's website and look through the platforms.
There are always people that don't care. This does not change the fact that as of today the available access as a whole means that we are more informed than ever.
Hardcore supporters may tend to limit their information, preferring to only get their news from their chosen liberal/conservative media machine. They may avoid any objective news or simply refuse to seek it out because they see it as subjective and biased.
Always has been this way, there will always be zealots. This does not contradict that they have more information.

This does not mean all of the information is perfect, it does not mean that the entire electorate approach anything with an open mind. There will always be idiots in the world.
Yes, but in order for that position to be known it has to be seen by the electorate. Have you gone to each third-party website?
Me? Over the past few election cycles, absolutely. Then again I do spend quite a bit of time analyzing fringe politics, and have done so for some time. My conclusion that these movements are made up mostly by crappy idealogues with followers that are either willfully blind to reality or who are casting a vote into the darkness as some sort of protest isn't a conclusion I've reached via simple prejudice.

I've done the homework, and once the third party scene starts to fully form in the next few months there will likely be posts by me pointing all of this out with some detail.

The only third party movement that is rational is one that seeks to build a small following about a narrow range of issues and seeking to exchange their votes for influence in a larger party's platform. For a third party to be successful it has to take most of the support away from a larger party, and at that point it is no longer a third party. The Whig party becomes the Republican party, and life moves on. Unless it unseats one of the big two, any third party movement has a lifespan of maybe two electorial cycles at the most. Usually it follows a somewhat strong intitial showing with a disappointing collapse.
Candidates in each major party's primary elections debate silly fools in the early stages of that process.
Nope. Those candidates are likewise screened. There are a bunch of candidates that filed with the FEC as candidates within both the Democratic and Republican parties that are not invited to debates because they are not viable candidates.
I'm not a supporter of that myth, nor do I think third-parties would win a Presidential election. It would be amazing if they even got a single Electoral Vote (that wasn't an unfaithful elector). But they have won local congressional elections in the past. Some parties are fairly venerable, they've demonstrated continued support, and deserve to have a greater profile than literally 0% of major media coverage. And deserve to be on each state's ballot in November, not just 30 or 40.
No they don't. They only deserve to be on the ballot if they can demonstrate support. They only deserve media coverage if someone cares. Being different in no way makes a person smart or noble. Local support should equal local coverage, and it generally does. Just because some candidate wins a seat in congress does not make his party nationally viable, In some local elections there is for all practical purposes a one party system, so any second party is as likely as the other to win a local office.
I'm no third-party revolutionist, I just think the major media is far too influential to completely ignore them without criticism. And if criticism doesn't work, I'd advocate legislation similar to equal-broadcast laws for the two parties in some areas. (which should be proportional for third-parties or independent candidates).

This criticsm was valid pre-internet, but oddly enough we can point to two third party candidates (Perot in '92 and Anderson in '80) that have fared quite well, mostly because of a major media with far, far more control over how we get information than now.

Post internet we have Ralph Nader getting some crumbs and then disappearing. We have a Libertarian party that has outed itself as being made up of mostly paranoid kooks rather than free market oriented civil liberty advocates. A green party that disappeared after shooting itself in the foot by supporting an anti-corporate relic rather than supporting the by far greenest viable candidate in modern politics.

Think about that for a second. The Green Party, a party whose main issue is the enviroment, did not vote for Al Gore. Mr. "An Inconvenient Truth" himself, the author of Earth in the Balance, a man clearly dedicated to enviromental issues.

This is madness. Once you toss in that this support resulted in a Bush administration that has been an enviromental nightmare, it becomes arguably the worst act of collective political stupidity in American history. These people somehow convinced themselves that there was no real difference between Al Gore and George Bush as to enviromental issues. No difference between a man that wrote books on the subject and spoke often about same, and a man with major connections in the energy business with a pattern of pro-corporate positions. A truely breathtaking moment of collective willful ignorance.

It was when the core premise that the two major parties are for practical purposes the same should have been buried forever, yet it lives on.
 
We have a Libertarian party that has outed itself as being made up of mostly paranoid kooks rather than free market oriented civil liberty advocates.
That is why I don't call myself a Libertarian although sympathetic to many Libertarian ideas.

Think about that for a second. The Green Party, a party whose main issue is the enviroment, did not vote for Al Gore. Mr. "An Inconvenient Truth" himself, the author of Earth in the Balance, a man clearly dedicated to enviromental issues.

A friend of mine quit the Green party in 2000,after having active in it for a number of years.
When he saw what was essentialy the hijacking of the party by a few Marxist oriented fanatics, and when the party's platform begun sounding like the Communist Manifesto (he particuraly was upset by the clause calling for "worker's control" (a fancy euphemism for Nationalisation) of all businesses making above One Million dollars a year in profit..and saying that was only the intial stage...he knew he had to get out of there.
 

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