Merged Rally to Restore Sanity

[marplots]

I don't understand the tolerance/intolerance dichotomy. If I like Yusuf's music but I dislike his support for a Fatwah, am I being tolerant or intolerant? It seems to me to be a gross oversimplification and doesn't get me anywhere.

I dislike the way Sarah Palin presents herself, but I like her strong stances on what she believes.

I like Jon Stewart's show, but I dislike it when a bit comes off as cruel more than funny.

I like Al Sharpton's support for civil rights and I dislike the commercialization of the same.

How is tolerance/intolerance at all a useful tool?

It could be that I am just not skilled enough to pick out the defining characteristic of someone's personality, especially when I only have access to their public persona. I can't even do this with my wife -- she is in turn callous and kind, stupid and wise, beautiful and repulsive. In short, she is a human being. Come to think of it, I can't even do it with myself.

 

[Piscivore]

Suppose you could will these people dead with the snap of your finger (or voodoo dolls if you prefer). Until you say otherwise, I'm assuming you wouldn't act on these impulses. That's because I think it's highly unlikely that you're actually a homicidal sociopath.

I wouldn't want to bet too much money on that. I wouldn't want to give any human that kind of consequence-free power. History doesn't speak well for our species.

To varying degrees, there's a part of me that wishes ill, even death, on lots of people (including mass murderers, people who take too long in the grocery checkout line, Abba, and many others). But the thing is, it's never risen to the level of me actually killing someone.

Neither has it for Yuself, as far as anyone knows.

And more to the point, it's never even risen to the level of me advocating the death of an innocent person.

Bully for you.

That's because the part of me that values and respects my fellow human beings far overshadows the base part of me that wishes them dead.

Would that we were all so noble as you.

Have you ever seriously advocated the death of a person who broke no laws, caused no physical harm, and stole no property?

Yes. At one time my life was consumed with such thoughts.

Has anyone in your family ever seriously advocated the death of such a person? Any friends? Acquaintances? I can't think of even one person IRL who has advocated the death of an artist due to their art.

Is history "IRL" enough for you?

In short, I'm not buying it for one minute.

Sure, if it makes you feel good, go ahead and think everyone is basically good at heart. That worked out great for that Frank kid.

(And in so not doing, I'm interpreting your words in the most positive light. You're welcome! )

Don't do me any favours. "Human" isn't always pretty.

 

[Piscivore]

I don't understand the tolerance/intolerance dichotomy. If I like Yusuf's music but I dislike his support for a Fatwah, am I being tolerant or intolerant? It seems to me to be a gross oversimplification and doesn't get me anywhere.

I dislike the way Sarah Palin presents herself, but I like her strong stances on what she believes.

I like Jon Stewart's show, but I dislike it when a bit comes off as cruel more than funny.

I like Al Sharpton's support for civil rights and I dislike the commercialization of the same.

How is tolerance/intolerance at all a useful tool?

It could be that I am just not skilled enough to pick out the defining characteristic of someone's personality, especially when I only have access to their public persona. I can't even do this with my wife -- she is in turn callous and kind, stupid and wise, beautiful and repulsive. In short, she is a human being. Come to think of it, I can't even do it with myself.

Piscivore Likes This.

 

[Piscivore]

If Fred Phelps had gone onstage and started ranting about what god hates, yes that would be counter-productive. If he had gone onstage with his family and sang "Kumbaya" (with the proper words) and meant it, it would be very productive. It would actually be rather awe-inspiring to see a radical Christian extremist lay down the metaphoric sword.

Yep. One of the things I think Stewart was specifically rallying against was this idea that "surrender" is the necessary first step for our "enemies" to take before we'll consider dialogue.

 

[Ziggurat]

Which part of his "actions" were violent?

The actions he advocated are violent. In contrast, the action that I'm advocating, which you wanted to equate to what he advocated, is not violent. You argued that they were different only by degree, but they aren't: they are different by kind.

You don't think he should be given a public platform to even perform a song on until he "takes back" what he said, don't you?

I think John Stewart shouldn't have given him this platform.

That's not the same thing.

It's the exact same effect. Which means your characterizations of (calling it punishment, equating it to complete social shunning) it were laughably absurd.

How so? What do you see as the goal of the rally? Was it "building consensus" to you?

In my view, the point of the rally was to try to establish common ground. There are certain values that are shared among liberals and conservatives, such as the idea that the law applies to everyone, and that the state alone should have the power to use violence for punishment. It is these shared fundamentals which let us tolerate the differences we have. It often gets forgotten just how much is shared in common, and that's unfortunate.

We can accomodate other differences, we can compromise on other issues, but not on such fundamentals. The entire structure of Western civil society will collapse if we lose them. Yusuf doesn't believe in these fundamentals. His beliefs are not actually compatible with the rally. That conflict can be brushed under the rug in the sense that we can ignore it, and most people there are probably ignorant about it to begin with, but the incompatibility cannot actually be resolved, and I don't think it's a good thing to ignore it either.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't understand the tolerance/intolerance dichotomy. If I like Yusuf's music but I dislike his support for a Fatwah, am I being tolerant or intolerant? It seems to me to be a gross oversimplification and doesn't get me anywhere.

Indeed: you have grossly oversimplified the issue. Is "dislike" really the extent of your evaluation? Do you consider the Fatwah as being fundamentally incompatible with western culture, or do you consider it merely an unfortunate opinion?

When you want to accuse me of insufficient nuance, it would help if your own analysis weren't so shallow.

It could be that I am just not skilled enough to pick out the defining characteristic of someone's personality

This has nothing to do with personality.

 

[Piscivore]

I think John Stewart shouldn't have given him this platform.

Why? What was special about "this platform"?

In my view, the point of the rally was to try to establish common ground. There are certain values that are shared among liberals and conservatives... It is these shared fundamentals which let us tolerate the differences we have.

No, it was specifically not about that:
"If we amplify everything we hear nothing. There are terrorists and racists and Stalinists and theocrats but those are titles that must be earned. You must have the resume. Not being able to distinguish between real racists and Tea Partiers or real bigots and Juan Williams and Rick Sanchez is an insult, not only to those people but to the racists themselves who have put in the exhausting effort it takes to hate--just as the inability to distinguish terrorists from Muslims makes us less safe not more."

"Look on the screen. This is where we are. This is who we are. (points to the Jumbotron screen which show traffic merging into a tunnel). These cars—that’s a schoolteacher who probably thinks his taxes are too high. He’s going to work. There’s another car-a woman with two small kids who can’t really think about anything else right now. There’s another car, swinging, I don’t even know if you can see it—the lady’s in the NRA and she loves Oprah. There’s another car—an investment banker, gay, also likes Oprah. Another car’s a Latino carpenter. Another car a fundamentalist vacuum salesman. Atheist obstetrician. Mormon Jay-Z fan. But this is us. Every one of the cars that you see is filled with individuals of strong belief and principles they hold dear—often principles and beliefs in direct opposition to their fellow travelers.

And yet these millions of cars must somehow find a way to squeeze one by one into a mile long 30 foot wide tunnel carved underneath a mighty river. Carved, by the way, by people who I’m sure had their differences. And they do it. Concession by conscession. You go. Then I’ll go. You go. Then I’ll go. You go then I’ll go. Oh my God, is that an NRA sticker on your car? Is that an Obama sticker on your car? Well, that’s okay—you go and then I’ll go."

It often gets forgotten just how much is shared in common, and that's unfortunate.

What's "unfortunate" is that some people need to find "something in common" before they deign to "tolerate".

 

[marplots]

Indeed: you have grossly oversimplified the issue. Is "dislike" really the extent of your evaluation? Do you consider the Fatwah as being fundamentally incompatible with western culture, or do you consider it merely an unfortunate opinion?

When you want to accuse me of insufficient nuance, it would help if your own analysis weren't so shallow.

Good points. I think I understand you better now. If I do, I take it that the acceptance of a Fatwah, or perhaps, by extension a system that allows such a decree, is the deal breaker? Good enough. We probably all have these lines which-must-not-be-crossed. Pedophilia is a common example.

I did mean 'dislike'. In truth, I don't have a reaction that amounts to more than that.

The interesting point from my perspective is that I do not have the same concepts as indivisible units in the way you seem to be expressing them. In other words, I do not have a unique sense of 'Western Culture" that could be contrasted and violated by a system that includes a Fatwah. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm not very well versed in just what a Fatwah is exactly.

I take it to be a sort of warrant issued by a religious authority for a crime against the Koran or Sharia law. This would include a sentence of death. In my system of government, there is a similar thing in place for Bin Laden, although I'm pretty sure no one really expects me to go and personally kill him, and I think capture would do.

Now, if accepting the authority of religious leaders and agreeing with a Fatwah is itself such an egregious offense as you feel it is, I think I finally get where you are coming from. I still disagree, but it makes more sense now.

Where I separate things is the whole symbol bit. But I've seen it before. I remember when the Dixie Chicks were dunned because their political opinions polluted their performances for many people. I just don't have that tie-in.

It strikes me as a form of magic. The way one distasteful part of a person is allowed to infect other parts. Like the way a bit of mold might make me disgusted at a whole loaf of bread. Or the way the sound of vomiting ruins my appetite. It seems to revolve around disgust and contact magic -- where the properties of one thing influence the properties of another.

I am perfectly willing to say, "Sure, so-and-so is a nut job, but I do like their music."

 

[Upchurch]

Indeed: you have grossly oversimplified the issue.

As have you, as have everyone. That's how we humans deal with complex issues: we simplify them into more detestable chunks.

Cat Stevens says he was misinterpreted. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Is this one aspect of one (I would argue rather background) performer the keystone for the entire foundation of the rally? Does his presence somehow invalidate the rally?

What is your point, Zig? Was Stevens the only chink in the armor you could complain about or does he represent anything significant?

 

[DavidJames]

I think the important message here is don't let a thread which talks about a rally presenting the Republican Tea Party in a bad light go on, it must be derailed. Not unlike a thread last week derailed by Wildcat which presented Justice Thomas in a bad light.

 

[DavidJames]

dup

 

[Jeff Corey]

Maybe the Jusef Islam derail could be split off?

For the sake of sanity. For the people who were there to tell their experiences as was requested last week?












I spelt his name wrong. i know, but can't edit it.

 

[commandlinegamer]

Some great placards at the rally, but this one FTW*

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/ga...rally-to-restore-sanity-andor-fear.php?img=25

* - Father Ted Win

 

[Ziggurat]

Is this one aspect of one (I would argue rather background) performer the keystone for the entire foundation of the rally? Does his presence somehow invalidate the rally?

I never said it was. Does your agreement with the premise of the rally and satisfaction with its general execution mean that it should be immune to any and all criticism? I should hope not.

Was Stevens the only chink in the armor you could complain about or does he represent anything significant?

I found it sufficiently significant to comment on. You are free to feel otherwise.

 

[Ziggurat]

The interesting point from my perspective is that I do not have the same concepts as indivisible units in the way you seem to be expressing them. In other words, I do not have a unique sense of 'Western Culture" that could be contrasted and violated by a system that includes a Fatwah. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm not very well versed in just what a Fatwah is exactly.

I take it to be a sort of warrant issued by a religious authority for a crime against the Koran or Sharia law.

Generically speaking, a fatwa is just a religiously-based statement of position by an Islamic religious authority. It could deal with crimes, it could deal with etiquette, it could deal with almost anything. And that's why I've generally avoided using the term (it's slipped in sometimes for brevity), because fatwas aren't categorically bad (we just hear the most about the bad ones). But this particular fatwa called for someone's execution, issued by someone QUITE influential among violent radicals (meaning there was a high probability that it would be carried out). It is a death sentence for blasphemy. I think that's a much more specific and hence much better description of what we're dealing with.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What I'm wondering is, did Stewart know Yusuf Islam supported the death sentence against Salman Rushdie? Or did he not care?

He took a ride on the Peace Train and changed his mind.

 

[shawmutt]

I don't get that either. If the rally was to encourage sanity, putting a religious fundamentalist on stage who has in the past advocated death for a writer wasn't really doing service to that agenda. And it opens the rally up to legitimate and unecessary criticism from the teabaggers and the rest of the Right. Bad move.

I was being sarcastic. I don't give a **** that he was there. Didn't even register as anything other than a humorous duel of train songs. If three minutes with Cat Yusef is all folks can come up with as an insult to the rally, the rally organizers did a pretty damn good job.

 

[Jeff Corey]

I was at the Moratorium in DC in 1969 and it was hard to tell on the ground, but it seemed to be about as many people as yesterday.
Not nearly as many cops on horses (only saw three) and no teargas or mass arrests.

 

[Piscivore]

It strikes me as a form of magic. The way one distasteful part of a person is allowed to infect other parts. Like the way a bit of mold might make me disgusted at a whole loaf of bread. Or the way the sound of vomiting ruins my appetite. It seems to revolve around disgust and contact magic -- where the properties of one thing influence the properties of another.

I am perfectly willing to say, "Sure, so-and-so is a nut job, but I do like their music."

That's exactly it, and that exact kind of thinking is what is pollutuing our political system right now- on both sides. Hell, going by what the ads on TV say, all the Republican candidates in AZ are running against Obama.

That's what Stewart was rallying against.

 

[Piscivore]

But this particular fatwa called for someone's execution, issued by someone QUITE influential among violent radicals (meaning there was a high probability that it would be carried out).

I think your probability estimator is a bit off.