Radio Metaphor Argument

[Jack]

I have intentionally avoided the use of any such terms. My only interest is with the quality of the original argument “changes to brains structure alter behavior and therefore demonstrate materialism”. The important points are “changes to structure” and “altering of behavior”.

Correction:

In the original hypothetical I said: "... they conclude based on the patterns of the sounds, that the melodies and words coming from it represent communication from an intelligent source."

Apparently I wasn't so careful to avoid a discussion of conscience or intelligence. My apologies.

 

[Dancing David]

Good point, of course the "mind" if separate from the brain might transfer data in a way that orientation or physical barriers would not affect it.

Agreed, the means of transmission could be very different.


However, if the aliens put a barrier around the radio and that barrier did not physically touch (alter) the radio and it caused interference then they could conclude that something was coming from outside the radio to cause the sound.

What if they conclude that the radio is sulky and doesn't like the barrier. They may conclude that there are emotional prerequisites for the radio to make certain noises


Agreed but the point of my hypothetical is narrow and only addresses the question of whether the sound comes solely from the radio or something else in conjunction with the radio?

RandFan

Sorry Jack

Can they draw that conclusion? I don't know. That is why I find it is great thought experiment.

 

[Jack]

Can they draw that conclusion? I don't know. That is why I find it is great thought experiment.

Oh, I agree with you. I think you made some great points. I hope you didn't miss understand my post. I think your response was great and I really apreciate it.

BTW, "sorry Jack" was meant for my son. I am using his username. This has caused confusion in the past and I'm trying to keep the two clear.

I really shouldn't be posting but I had a little bit of time and really wanted to post this argument.

Again, thank you for your response.

RandFan (aka Mr. Foot-in-mouth)

 

[Dancing David]

No problem percieved!

I just am really wondering what they would think about the radio!

 

[Skeptical Greg]

RandFan here,

..............................

Question: Should the life forms conclude that the change in behavior demonstrates that the radio is producing the music completely on its own?



RandFan,

Over and out.

No, they shouldn't.

The two choices that seem to be given are:

1. The radio is a sound portal of some kind..

2. The radio is a sound generator of some kind..


I suggest that the only conclusion they can come to, is that it might be both..

 

[Jack]

Re: Re: Radio Metaphor Argument

No, they shouldn't.

The two choices that seem to be given are:

1. The radio is a sound portal of some kind..

2. The radio is a sound generator of some kind..

I suggest that the only conclusion they can come to, is that it might be both..

I can live with that. How does this relate to the original argument that physically altering the brain and a change in behavior is demonstrative of materialism?

May I rephrase your conclusions?

1. The radio produces sound by both external and internal means.

2. The radio produces sound without any external means.

Compare to-

1. The brain produces behavior by external and internal means.

2. The brain produces behavior without any external means.

According to you,

Altering the physical structure of the radio to cause a change in behavior leads us to conclude that both are possible.

If this is true then,

Does altering the physical structure of the brain lead us to the same conclusion?

 

[Dancing David]

Re: Re: Re: Radio Metaphor Argument

I can live with that. How does this relate to the original argument that physically altering the brain and a change in behavior is demonstrative of materialism?

May I rephrase your conclusions?

1. The radio produces sound by both external and internal means.

2. The radio produces sound without any external means.

Compare to-

1. The brain produces behavior by external and internal means.

2. The brain produces behavior without any external means.

According to you,

Altering the physical structure of the radio to cause a change in behavior leads us to conclude that both are possible.

If this is true then,

Does altering the physical structure of the brain lead us to the same conclusion?

HMM it bears thought because I am one of the people who uses this argument to draw the coclusions that consiousness is most likely organic in nature.

When the aliens play with the radio, they find that it has a knob and that it has a removable battery. They find that the knob can alter the noises coming from the radio.

So to explore the anology further, they find a human along with the radio, and I am sorry because at first I will explore the weakness of the metaphor and then the inherent strenth of the thought experiment.

The aliens will have a difficult time finding knobs on the human, although they will find that twisting the protrusions on a human can alter the intensity and level of the noises the human produce. They may find there is a difference between the noise produced by tickling and breaking an arm. They will not find however that there is an on/off switch, although they may find that breaking the arm and other twisting of the protrusions does leads to very loud noises followed by a lack of noises if the person goes into shcok. If the human is wearing clothes they will find that they are like knobs and can be removed and replaced.

But to further the thought experiment I would like to posit that they have a very large number of radios and humans. And that while lacking an understanding of eletrical machanics and biology they will preform similar experiments upon the radios and the humans.

They will find that the radio has an external box or covering that they can remove without damaging the working of the radio. If the humans have clothes they may decide that they are similar in nature and that the enclousure is like clothing. Or they may decide to strip the skin off of the humans and find that this increases the volume of the noises and then is followed by a lack of noises.

Say that these aliens have enoungh sophistication to really do some serious study of the radios. They will learn that there is the connection between the dial to control the frequency and some mystery device that changes the noises from the radio. They will learn that they can connect and disconnect this and that the radio still works, they may even find a way to alter the frequency with out the dial.
They will find that the radio has a power source that they can connect and disconnect and the radio will still work.
And in fact given a certain degree of sophistication they will find that they can take the radios apart and reassemble them in working condition.
They will also find that they can take part from one radio and substitute them in another.

They find alot of things out that they can do to the radios that they can't do to the humans and have them return to working order.

But given sufficient time and say a guide to human language and culture they will find out the following things:
-that humans have a power source and that it seems to involve food and water and a need to excrete. For if they deprive the humans of food and water and the ability to excrete they cease to function
-that they can take humans apart and reassemble them with some sucsess, depending on the discovery of anesthesia and the delicacy of the surgical reconstruction.
-that there seem to be some parts which if they remove them from the humans, they will not return to working order.
-the administration of drugs and/or mineral salts to the humans can cause changes in thier behaviors
-depriving humans of food ,water and sleep will change thier behavior
-and depending on the nature of thier understanding of human behavior and thier ability to damage the human brain, they will find the specific areas of the human brain are related to specific behaviors that the humans can no longer preform.


So alot of post and still going nowhere:
The aliens have two camps
one believes that the radios and humans are mindless automatons that recieve a signal from somewhere.
two believes that the radios and humans are endowed with some sort of 'spirit' that causes them to behave as they do.

Are there experiments that they can do, without an understanding of biology and eletrical mechanics to make that determination?

 

[c4ts]

Uhhhhh... damaging a radio doesn't cause it to play different music. If it were analagous to the brain it would.

 

[Jack]

Uhhhhh... damaging a radio doesn't cause it to play different music. If it were analagous to the brain it would.

Interesting, I think I have an idea of what you are alluding to but I am not certain. Could you give us some examples of changed behavior that is analogous to playing different music?

 

[Jack]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Radio Metaphor Argument

So alot of post and still going nowhere:
The aliens have two camps
one believes that the radios and humans are mindless automatons that recieve a signal from somewhere.
two believes that the radios and humans are endowed with some sort of 'spirit' that causes them to behave as they do.

Are there experiments that they can do, without an understanding of biology and eletrical mechanics to make that determination?

Excellent question and a good extension of the orginal thought experiment.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Question: Should the life forms conclude that the change in behavior demonstrates that the radio is producing the music completely on its own?

In a word, yes. In another word, tentatively. Of course, from our perspective as the inventors of radio, we know which answer is right, and can laugh at the silly aliens who conclude otherwise. The aliens themselves, however, lack this luxury.

Let's bring in two alien experts to look at the device. One says it is obvious that the radio is producing the music without outside help, the other holds that there is external signal. The former, if he's rational, may well concede that there could be some transmission from an external source, but will not believe it until the latter has demonstrated it.

Any interested aliens following the debate, assuming again that they are acting rationally, should side with the former, waiting to see if any evidence of the external signal is forthcoming.

We are in the same boat with the brain. The materialist position maintains that if we are to believe in some external signal, someone had better demonstrate it. Until then, we tentatively conclude that there is no signal. Might we be wrong. Of course, but mightn't we always?

Imagine how the thought experiment changes if the aliens discover a functioning portable mp3 player with lots of songs already in it.

 

[Jack]

Uhhhhh... damaging a radio doesn't cause it to play different music. If it were analagous to the brain it would.

This is one of those instances where the premise is not sufficient to convey the true essence of the problem. Perhaps "damage" is not a good term. How about "physically changed?"

If the aliens changed the radio in such a way as to alter the frequency then it would in fact change. Let's say the radio played music 100% of the time. Let's also say that the radio has no knobs but was preset to a specific station. Now by "physically changing" the radio the aliens alter the frequency setting so that it no longer receives music but only talk radio.

"What's the frequency Kenneth?"

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: Re: Re: Radio Metaphor Argument

I can live with that. How does this relate to the original argument that physically altering the brain and a change in behavior is demonstrative of materialism?

May I rephrase your conclusions?

1. The radio produces sound by both external and internal means.

2. The radio produces sound without any external means.

Compare to-

1. The brain produces behavior by external and internal means.

2. The brain produces behavior without any external means.

According to you,

Altering the physical structure of the radio to cause a change in behavior leads us to conclude that both are possible.

If this is true then,

Does altering the physical structure of the brain lead us to the same conclusion?

As others have said, in the absence of evidence of a transmitter ( for the radio ) or evidence that conciousness exists in the absence of a brain, I would not assume that neither does not exist..

I don't see how the results of altering the radio or the brain will prove the existence of either ( the transmitter or autonomous conciousness) ...

It's kind of like suggesting you can take an engine apart to determine the chemistry of gasoline.

The one variation on this theme that seems conclusive to me, is that if you altered the radio/brain and the ouput didn't change, it would be more likely that the output had an independant source... And one might be justifiably inclined to expend substantial resources to identify it..

 

[uruk]

It's kind of like suggesting you can take an engine apart to determine the chemistry of gasoline.

well, actually, you can can make some assumptions as to the nature of gasoline by taking apart an engine.

using this analogy, you can make assumptions as to the nature of conciouseness by studying the brain.

 

[Iacchus]

As others have said, in the absence of evidence of a transmitter ( for the radio ) or evidence that conciousness exists in the absence of a brain, I would not assume that neither does not exist..

I don't see how the results of altering the radio or the brain will prove the existence of either ( the transmitter or autonomous conciousness) ...

It's kind of like suggesting you can take an engine apart to determine the chemistry of gasoline.

The one variation on this theme that seems conclusive to me, is that if you altered the radio/brain and the ouput didn't change, it would be more likely that the output had an independant source... And one might be justifiably inclined to expend substantial resources to identify it..

And what about the "spiritual medium," for the origin of consciousness? You see, as much as you would like to entertain to the contrary, we are not alone.

 

[Iacchus]

Uhhhhh... damaging a radio doesn't cause it to play different music. If it were analagous to the brain it would.

Albeit it does effect the qualty of the music which is played back, whether the sound gets distorted, the signal is not amplified, etc..

 

[Skeptical Greg]

well, actually, you can can make some assumptions as to the nature of gasoline by taking apart an engine.

using this analogy, you can make assumptions as to the nature of conciouseness by studying the brain.

I understand your point, but the exercise involves determining the nature of the radio receiver without any knowledge or assumptions about a transmitter...

We can make all kinds of assumptions ( actually, the exersise that is layed out by Jack seems to ask us to avoid assumptions.. ) , but my post was in response to a question about reaching conclusions..


My point was not about infering that the engine was driven by some sort of explosive fuel, but that assuming you would never have access to gasoline, you could study the engine and come up with a molecular model for gasoline.

Not impossible, but more likely to be a lucky guess, than a reasoned hypothesis...

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Radio Metaphor Argument

*sniiip*

So alot of post and still going nowhere:
The aliens have two camps
one believes that the radios and humans are mindless automatons that recieve a signal from somewhere.
two believes that the radios and humans are endowed with some sort of 'spirit' that causes them to behave as they do.

Are there experiments that they can do, without an understanding of biology and eletrical mechanics to make that determination?

Frankly, I think you are flogging the metaphor to death here. It is quite possible to theorize on a situation where it is not possible to distinguish between a radio and a human, in the sense that you cannot determine that one is a machine and one is a living being, but it really does not tell us anything.

All it boils down to is the self-evident statement that: If consciousness is something we cannot understand or distinguish from a biological process, then we cannot know if it is a biological process or not.

For the radio metaphor to be useful, IMHO we must use the premise that the aliens are cabable of understanding approximately the same things as humans, but that they for some reason have never discovered radio waves.

- And in that case, it would be possible for them to find out by observation that the radio depends on an outside source for the signals it emits (even without taking it apart). Not only could they interfere with the signals by shielding it, but they would be able to generate signals that were received by the radio.

Take this analogy to study of the brain, we have not, even after quite detailed studies, found any dependence on external signals other than the information reaching us through our senses, nor have we been able to transmit to the mind, except through the same senses. .... I am here excluding various paranormal claims.

Hans

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Radio Metaphor Argument

Frankly, I think you are flogging the metaphor to death here.

Hans

I agree.. I was fun to put it in a new perspective, but changing from humans studying the brain, to aliens studying a radio, does not alter the nature of the problem/question... We have not revealed any new tools/procedures to analyse the problem..

 

[Dancing David]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Radio Metaphor Argument

I agree.. I was fun to put it in a new perspective, but changing from humans studying the brain, to aliens studying a radio, does not alter the nature of the problem/question... We have not revealed any new tools/procedures to analyse the problem..

I think that Jack has entertained a fair amount of my lampooning the original premise.