Racist Countryside Art

[Lplus]

Every year, millions of Chinese gather on the ramparts of the Great Wall, and yell out "Thank you England!"

you missed the obvious joke about not being able to get it on the ships...

Sad.

 

[zooterkin]

Colonials sucked, yes, but British colonials sucked horrendously. They were particularly sucky, even for colonials.

In Australia and to a lesser extent in New Zealand, I'd probably agree; less so in other places - India, Malaya (as was), Nigeria, Ghana. Belgium was particularly bad as a colonial power in Africa, for example, Germany too. France was also mixed depending on the location.

ETA: Bloody page break again.

 

[ahhell]

Colonials sucked, yes, but British colonials sucked horrendously. They were particularly sucky, even for colonials.
No, but they should acknowledge their ancestors' suckage, not make excuses for it, and where possible do what they can to alleviate the harm that they inflicted on indigenous populations.

Returning all the stuff they stole would be a good start.

Meh, that seriously underrates how bad other colonials were.

 

[theprestige]

Meh, that seriously underrates how bad other colonials were.

Exactly.

You might try listening to it. They had a whole episode on the Elgin Marbles. Elgin did a lot of damage to the Parthenon himself when he took to it with hammers and saws. He didn't leave much for the Turkish to destroy.

But no, just as examples from that show, I could have brought up the Benin Bronzes, or the Pekingese dog that was stolen from the Summer Palace when it was sacked, returned to England as a gift for Queen Victoria and named "Looty" (yes, that's true, look it up), or the rum (and slave) trade from Barbados, or the Shellal Mosaic, or the Golden Guardian, or the Motonui epa - these are just singular examples of the British in particular rampaging around the world just taking whatever they felt like and trampling all over the rich cultures and peoples wherever they went.

And Pocahontas, or Matoaka to call her by her name. Look up that story too, if you want to see how brutal and callous British colonials were, and how mercilessly Disney butchered that story.

The suggestion that the indigenous populations weren't going to take care of the artifacts is answered in the very first episode of the podcast, on Tipu's Tiger. From the transcript:

First, stealing cultural artifacts probably doesn't even make my top ten list of evil things colonizers have done. The more you harp on it, the more it just makes the Brits look pretty okay, all things considered.

Second, nobody is denying that colonial Albion was, indeed, perfidious. We're just saying they had a lot of top-tier competition, and it's by no means clear that they were the champions of perfidy.

I mean, hell, Russian imperialism has been a breathtaking demonstration of man's inhumanity to man, and they barely made it out of their own back yard.

It seems like you're inventing rationalizations to justify claiming the British Empire was the worst thing ever, in an exercise of enlightened self-loathing. It's an excellent example of modern progressive sociopolitical woo, and an excellent example of "awakening" to a truth that isn't true, a history that does not mean what you have chosen to believe it means. Which brings us full circle to the topic of this thread, which is also about the British trying to awaken each other to self-loathing untruths.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Every year, millions of Chinese gather on the ramparts of the Great Wall, and yell out "Thank you England!"

For all the opium, I guess.
You're welcome, Chinese people.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... I mean, hell, Russian imperialism has been a breathtaking demonstration of man's inhumanity to man, and they barely made it out of their own back yard.

They did move the fence a bit and that back yard got quite a lot bigger.

I never miss an opportunity to note, as I love the statistic, they added an average 50 square miles every day for four hundred years.

 

[Lplus]

For all the opium, I guess.
You're welcome, Chinese people.

Good point, though I thought the conversation was about taking stuff away.

 

[theprestige]

Good point, though I thought the conversation was about taking stuff away.

The conversation is about whether the British people are possessed of a dark nationalism and xenophobia, inspired by their indigenous landscape artworks, and whether this is of a piece with them being allegedly the worst colonists to ever colonize.

 

[Lplus]

The conversation is about whether the British people are possessed of a dark nationalism and xenophobia, inspired by their indigenous landscape artworks, and whether this is of a piece with them being allegedly the worst colonists to ever colonize.

And the answer from several posters seems to be - Not really, but lets kick them anyway.

 

[theprestige]

Okay, but now I'm wondering if I've done the Brits a disservice. Maybe they're not unique in this original sin. Maybe there needs to be signs erected in front of Ayers Rock, warning visitors that it can inspire dark nationalism and a hatred of the Other, in aboriginals who view it.

 

[arthwollipot]

It seems like you're inventing rationalizations to justify claiming the British Empire was the worst thing ever, in an exercise of enlightened self-loathing. It's an excellent example of modern progressive sociopolitical woo, and an excellent example of "awakening" to a truth that isn't true, a history that does not mean what you have chosen to believe it means. Which brings us full circle to the topic of this thread, which is also about the British trying to awaken each other to self-loathing untruths.

It's not about self-loathing. I quite like myself, thank you. I was born with certain privileges, particularly being white and male, that make my life quite decent. But I have to acknowledge the atrocities that my ancestors committed, particularly on the people whose land I now live on. Sovereignty never ceded.

 

[Klimax]

So we have 20th April. And still not a single photo of that sign. Instead we have weak debate between well entrenched critics and defenders/obfuscators full of vacuous posts. Plus sideshow about irrelevant mostly offtopic crap like colonialism.

 

[Lplus]

So we have 20th April. And still not a single photo of that sign. Instead we have weak debate between well entrenched critics and defenders/obfuscators full of vacuous posts. Plus sideshow about irrelevant mostly offtopic crap like colonialism.

All we need to know is whether the sign was as described in the article.

 

[Vixen]

Compared to whom? To the Arab/Muslim colonials? The the Han colonials? To the Bantu colonials?

[qimg]https://i.postimg.cc/XY7XMcpY/slavetrade.jpg[/qimg]



Just horrible. These "indigineous" people didn't value their own history and artifacts. The silly Brits shouldn't have either.

Anything that refers to 'these people' can be safely ignored.

Enough of the 'tu quoque' logical fallacies you are so fond of.

 

[Vixen]

As a Brit, I'm not unaware of and won't defend my ancestors' Maxim-guns-vs-sharpened-fruit reputation for grabbing large amounts of other peoples land and declaring ownership. Nor of our older reputation which lingers across much of South America for being a nation of viscious pirates.

But I am curious about the claim that the British were the worst-behaved colonisers. By what metric?

They had a 'thick or sticky consistency'...?

 

[Vixen]

In the case of Elgin Marbles, the quotes kind of make sense. Modern Greeks have more of an ethnic and cultural connection to the Ottomans, than to the ancient Greek civilization that produced the marbles.

Next time you are near the British Museum, do go and have a look at the Ottoman Empire section*, and you can see that they were far from the barbarians, we in the Christian west like to imagine they were. Their artwork is simply beautiful.

*In the basement as I recall.

 

[Darat]

All we need to know is whether the sign was as described in the article.

I feel as if I am giving notes to the teacher, sorry the dog ate my homework. This week it was the delivery of my injections, changed the day on me.

 

[Darat]

Rather than starting a new thread I'll pop this in here:

From the DT - seems to be on a run:

Link via MSN to avoid the paywall:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle...olour-museum-claims-in-lgbt-guide/ar-AA1njaSK

Queen Charlotte was ‘person of colour’, museum claims in LGBT guide

“Yep, you heard me. The insecure white boys writing history conveniently forget to mention that bit, because… well, structural racism.”

Not this one really pisses me off, for a couple of reasons, 1) the major one - it's simply factually wrong 2) what the hell does a phrase like that have in any official guide?

 

[Vixen]

Rather than starting a new thread I'll pop this in here:

From the DT - seems to be on a run:

Link via MSN to avoid the paywall:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle...olour-museum-claims-in-lgbt-guide/ar-AA1njaSK


Not this one really pisses me off, for a couple of reasons, 1) the major one - it's simply factually wrong 2) what the hell does a phrase like that have in any official guide?

The myth about Queen Charlotte arises from the fact she had an ancestor from six generations ago who was an African woman named Madragana of Faro*. If this makes Queen Charlotte a 'person of colour', then it means Princes William and Harry are also POC's as their ancestor Eliza Kerwick was Anglo-Indian. Yet no-one refers to William and Harry as being of 'Indian ethnicity'. (Although Cliff Richard very likely is.)

*The ancestor was a Moor, so probably an Arabic African.

 

[theprestige]

Okay, I've edited that post far too much so I'll say this last bit in a new one.

Britain claims that the Marbles are safer in the British Museum than they would be in Greece. So Greece built a museum to house the Marbles. It contains about 40% of the original statues, which somehow still survived despite not being in Britain. Britain still won't return the ones that Elgin stole. So the argument that they are "safer" in Britain is pretty spurious if you ask me. They'd be just as "safe" back in Greece.

Truly it is said, the perfidy of Albion knows no bounds. No empire, be it ever so evil, has wrought upon an undeserving world the horrors the British Empire has wrought, when it stole the Elgin Marbles and didn't give them back.