Racism is alive and well in Britain

[dudalb]

You don't know anyone who directly benefited from owning a slave, yet the social advantage persists to this day.

Why should you get that advantage?

I guess in your world 2 Wrongs DO make a right.
But thanks for reminding me why I not a "liberal". It balances the Tea Party fools reminding me why I am not a "conservative".

 

[bpesta22]

No, I'm pretty sure that's all it takes.

Now some people need an awful lot more of both to succeed, but there's still no magic formula. It's not the 20's, there is no great conspiracy to keep anyone down. It's other people at the bottom doing the pulling.

I grew up in a slum area, and my family went through all kinds of hell, because my parents saved up and bought their house, and I liked to read. We were 'uppity'. Ignorance likes company.

I disagree-- it's the blank slate fallacy. For example, I'm sure Palin is highly motivated to be prez, and would work hard. No way in hell she's qualified, or likely ever will be.

 

[TraneWreck]

WHite Liberal Guilt much?

I feel no guilt for slavery. My family wasn't even in the country yet.

I do, however, recognize how that institution greatly benefited the economy of whites, a disparity that continued through legal segregation in the South and the de facto segregation of the North.

The point is that Affirmative Action is a very mild corrective. Would you rather pay the families of slaves past due wages with interest?

 

[TraneWreck]

I guess in your world 2 Wrongs DO make a right.
But thanks for reminding me why I not a "liberal". It balances the Tea Party fools reminding me why I am not a "conservative".

Again, if it's wrong, show the negative impact on American whites. Surely this great wrong must be discernible.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

I disagree-- it's the blank slate fallacy. For example, I'm sure Palin is highly motivated to be prez, and would work hard. No way in hell she's qualified, or likely ever will be.

?

She won't be Prez because she's moronic. I can never be an astronaut, because I am 31 and need to go to the gym.

You're completely losing me with your point, unless you think that being black magically gives you the right to any job you want?

Work hard at school and you'll do ok. Work hard at school and have superior genes, and you'll probably do better than ok.

Again, I am white, and I grew up in a slum with no prospects at all. So I did my best at school, and now I live in another country and have an upper working/lower middle class lifestyle. Most of the people I went to school with didn't even graduate, and dropped kids at 17. Do they deserve any perks?

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

The point is that Affirmative Action is a very mild corrective. Would you rather pay the families of slaves past due wages with interest?

My great granddad came to England because of the potato famine, and spent his life being worked to death in mines, for land owners that could take his job and house from him at the drop of a hat and leave him to die in the gutter.

As a result I grew up in a slummy area with no prospects.

I want my reparations!

 

[Ziggurat]

And yet every major Civil Rights initiative was put into place precisely because markets were 100% useless in dealing with such problems.

Well, duh. The markets can't correct racist government, and racist government was by far the biggest problem during the civil rights era.

The bus boycotts ended with federal action, not market correction.

Because the buses were segregated by law, not by private corporate policy.

The schools had to be forcibly desegregated

Public schools, which are government-run and don't have a profit motive at all.

and even though massive protests throughout the South managed to get a few Woolworth's desegregated, those were all local phenomenon.

The only case you mentioned in which the racism wasn't government.

But I enjoy this myth.

Funny thing: you haven't shown anything I said to be a myth.

Are you seriously arguing that a segregated business in modern Alabama would fail because they couldn't make money?

Fail? No, I'm not arguing that they would fail, only that they would do worse because of that decision. In fact, I rather explicitly said that markets don't prohibit racism, I said they punish it, but punishment doesn't need to be in the form of failure, it can be in the form of reduced profits. Your question indicates you haven't really paid attention to what I've been saying.

 

[MikeMangum]

If I assume its true for a minute, I don't like the idea of ethnic minority only applications, however, it appears that treating everyone 'equally' did not result in the desired outcome either.

I thought the desired outcome was treating everyone equally.

 

[Dragonrock]

You don't know anyone who directly benefited from owning a slave, yet the social advantage persists to this day.

Why should you get that advantage?

My family either immgrated in the 1930s or were here before the europeans. So what advantage did slavery offer me?

 

[Primus]

I won't get the job as I don't live in the UK and don't have authorization to work there. I wanted to see if this part of the article linked in the OP was correct:



It's an outright lie, white people are not barred from applying. After they offered me an interview, I quickly declined. I didn't want to waste their time.

First point, the advert clearly says "open to black and ethnic minority candidates" either it is stating a preference based on race, or non-white people aren't allowed to apply for other jobs so they had to state that this one is OK to apply for.
As you are saying the assertation that this job is stating a preferred race is a lie, why did they say that?

Second point, when did you apply for this job. I would love to know the details of this as it appears you are saying you applied for a UK public sector job and got an interview the same day. You must have one hell of a CV as these kind of jobs usually take about 6 weeks to collect the hundreds of applications and then long list interviewee's. It certainly sounds very unusual to say the least.

 

[TraneWreck]

My family either immgrated in the 1930s or were here before the europeans. So what advantage did slavery offer me?

Really? Because free labor was essential to the economic ascendency of this nation that you, as a white person, have automatic access to in a way that African Americans don't.

You don't have to build the country club to take advantage of its exclusive membership.

 

[TraneWreck]

Well, duh. The markets can't correct racist government, and racist government was by far the biggest problem during the civil rights era.

Because the buses were segregated by law, not by private corporate policy.

Public schools, which are government-run and don't have a profit motive at all.

The only case you mentioned in which the racism wasn't government.

Funny thing: you haven't shown anything I said to be a myth.

Fail? No, I'm not arguing that they would fail, only that they would do worse because of that decision. In fact, I rather explicitly said that markets don't prohibit racism, I said they punish it, but punishment doesn't need to be in the form of failure, it can be in the form of reduced profits. Your question indicates you haven't really paid attention to what I've been saying.

You haven't established that they would do worse. In fact, given the current teabagging Zeitgeist, it's likely that such a business would get a lot of F-You money.

Schools in the North were segregated just like schools in the South. The difference was, of course, the specific legal structure. Lending discrimination by banks and the effect of race on property values has left the major northern cities in a terrible state of segregation.

I defy you to find a city in the South as clearly segregated as Chicago. All that happened with market forces cranking along just fine.

 

[Ziggurat]

You haven't established that they would do worse.

You haven't established that they wouldn't.

In fact, given the current teabagging Zeitgeist

Because smaller government = RACIST!!11!1!

I defy you to find a city in the South as clearly segregated as Chicago.

Let's see... which city do you think has more government interference in the market housing... Chicago or Houston? Public (ie, government-directed, non-market) housing was a MAJOR factor in creating and enforcing racial segregation in Chicago. The fact that Chicago is so segregated, even compared to the South, rather supports my argument that market forces provide a disincentive to racism, but government intervention can interfere with these disincentives.

All that happened with market forces cranking along just fine.

Pull the other one, TW.

 

[Alt+F4]

First point, the advert clearly says "open to black and ethnic minority candidates" either it is stating a preference based on race, or non-white people aren't allowed to apply for other jobs so they had to state that this one is OK to apply for.
As you are saying the assertation that this job is stating a preferred race is a lie, why did they say that?

There is zero evidence that white people are not allowed to apply for these positions. I have no idea why The Mail reported what they did.

Second point, when did you apply for this job.

Today.

I would love to know the details of this as it appears you are saying you applied for a UK public sector job and got an interview the same day. You must have one hell of a CV as these kind of jobs usually take about 6 weeks to collect the hundreds of applications and then long list interviewee's. It certainly sounds very unusual to say the least.

I apologize. I misspoke when I said I had an interview scheduled for June 10. The email said they would email me on June 10 for an interview appointment. My point remains, I was not rejected for applying for these positions because I identified as white. Anyone who wants to confirm my observations can also apply via online at the Bristol City Council website (registration required).

 

[Mumbles]

Let's see... which city do you think has more government interference in the market housing... Chicago or Houston? Public (ie, government-directed, non-market) housing was a MAJOR factor in creating and enforcing racial segregation in Chicago. The fact that Chicago is so segregated, even compared to the South, rather supports my argument that market forces provide a disincentive to racism, but government intervention can interfere with these disincentives.

According to your quote, public housing only consisted of 19,700 apartments total by 1968. I would think that the widespread discrimination against black people by banks (according to "Family Properties" by Beryl Satter, only 21 of the 243 S&Ls would lend to black people looking to buy a home in a black neighborhood, and only 1 would loan to a black family looking to buy in a white neighborhood, in 1959), collusion against black realtors (black people were simply banned from any realty groups) and the widespread hostility towards black neighbors from white people (see MLK's march through Chicago's suburbs) would be more influential. Granted, the FHA didn't help matters (Again from "Family Properties" they backed no (zero) loans to black people in Chicago before 1965), but this was due more to them taking on realtor bias, than it was them forcing the hand of banks.

As for the idea that black people are favored in job searches, Devah Pager did some research into this for high-school level jobs, and found that black people with clean records were treated roughly the same as white people who had just been released from jail for a felony, and the unemployment rate for black people has been higher than that for white people, at all ages, education levels, and states, going back as far as records go.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I defy you to find a city in the South as clearly segregated as Chicago. All that happened with market forces cranking along just fine.

Psh, that is "self-segregation".

And they are unemployed because they are lazy. We have proven this many times here.

 

[Damien Evans]

So the British government is racist. There are jobs you can't apply for if you don't have the right skin colour. link

WHat on earth does this have to do with the British Government?

 

[Ziggurat]

As for the idea that black people are favored in job searches, Devah Pager did some research into this for high-school level jobs, and found that black people with clean records were treated roughly the same as white people who had just been released from jail for a felony, and the unemployment rate for black people has been higher than that for white people, at all ages, education levels, and states, going back as far as records go.

Which is in agreement with what I suggested before: minimum wage makes discrimination in hiring for those jobs essentially cost-free for employers.

 

[Darat]

Remember these are training opportunities, there is no guarantee of a job at the end of it. Obviously the hope is that at the end of the training the people would be in a good position to apply for any job, and any such job would have to be open to other people (of whatever ethnicity). Also note that in the UK "ethnicity" does not simply refer to the colour of your skin.

 

[Primus]

There is zero evidence that white people are not allowed to apply for these positions. I have no idea why The Mail reported what they did.



Today.



I apologize. I misspoke when I said I had an interview scheduled for June 10. The email said they would email me on June 10 for an interview appointment. My point remains, I was not rejected for applying for these positions because I identified as white. Anyone who wants to confirm my observations can also apply via online at the Bristol City Council website (registration required).

Please answer the question. Why did the advert state "open to black and ethnic minority candidates"?

You misspoke. Sorry about the misunderstanding there Hiliary. I can see why you did. Saying you got an automated reply just doesn't quite nail home your point the same does it? Government training schemes get thousands of applications. They will not do thousands of interviews.

Given you are throwing questionable accusations of lying about yourself. You might want to make either make sure you're not lying or you do some research before you start making things up about the UK job market. Especially if your debating a point with someone who had spent the last 4 years hopping between jobs around the UK.