Race is a human/social construct.

Met Rushton once; talked for over an hour; liked him; think he's been vilified (even if everything he ever wrote turns out to be wrong); will defend him because his vita is almost always longer and nicer than the CVs of those who dismiss him as racist.

Realize the penalty one takes for even doing research in this area. That explains why citations often involve the same small set of players. That's why I think journal quality is key here.

I assume you are a white, educated, male otherwise your chat with him may not have gone so well. Regardless of your opinion of him, or rather your limited interactions with him, Rushton is a racist. His stance on Islam being violent and irrational because of the genetic disposition of individuals from the Middle East is telling, his entire speech at the above mentioned conference is telling. As is his position as the head of the Pioneer Fund and the fact he contributes articles to racist webpages -- VDARE being such an example.

His methodology is also lazy, read the wiki article I linked to. Better yet, follow the links to the review pages from other PhD carrying individuals. I believe one of them even points out that Rushton cites pornographic material to prove his case that blacks are more endowed and sexually active than whites.
 
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I assume you are a white, educated, male otherwise your chat with him may not have gone so well. Regardless of your opinion of him, or rather your limited interactions with him, Rushton is a racist. His stance on Islam being violent and irrational because of the genetic disposition of individuals from the Middle East is telling, his entire speech at the above mentioned conference is telling. As is his position as the head of the Pioneer Fund and the fact he contributes articles to racist webpages -- VDARE being such an example.

His methodology is also lazy, read the wiki article I linked to. Better yet, follow the links to the review pages from other PhD carrying individuals. I believe one of them even points out that Rushton cites pornographic material to prove his case that blacks are more endowed and sexually active than whites.

I was a peer reviewer for at least one of his articles, and vice versa. He is definitely a race realist. Wonder what I am?

I asked him about the penis study, and it was a funny explanation that made sense to me. I'm not comfortable sharing it though.

I did apply for a Pioneer Fund grant, but he rejected me. I'd apply for one again, but I need a genetics expert and apparently I'd rather post here than try to get the next publication....!
 
You fit the data to your hypothesis by ignoring the data that doesn't support it.
Show exactly where/how this is being done and back it up. Your reaction of the results is not sufficient.

yes, you can choose any number of things and find the cluster of correlating genetic sequences.
Not if they aren't actually correlated; only if they are. If you pick things that aren't correlated, you just do the math and the number tells you they aren't. (Just like if you picked things that were, the number would tell you they were.) There's no way you could make them be or make them not be, either intentionally or unintentionally.

All you've done is identified a cluster of genetic markers that identify an arbitrarily designated group.
Correlatedness is a real-world trait that a combination of things either have together or don't have together (actually a range of numbers from -1 to 1). We don't have any choice about which combinations do or don't (where in that range the number actually falls). That is not arbitrary. It's what reality tells us when we check the facts.

And you know it; because the basic nature of correlation (which anybody can pick up in an introductory semester of statistics at whatever college is nearest to you) has been explained here more than once before, including in this thread (post 136, between the little bars made of "=" symbols), you can't just not know this at this point.

Make up anything you want and call it a race.
The other kinds of human groups you're talking about already have their own names, such as "blood group". They don't need another name. Why are you trying so hard to apply something else's name to them?

How about people with type O- blood, blonde hair, light skin and blue eyes?... You could find the cluster of genetic markers that successfully predicts such a human group.

Pick another group. A+ blood, brown hair, brown eyes and taller than 5'5". Same thing, you can find the cluster of genetic markers these folks would have in common.
Yes, but it would actually be your favorite word, arbitrary, unlike the things you keep misapplying that word to, because of the lack of actual correlations between the items in the group. The fact that you put them together in a list doesn't magically make a correlation appear where there isn't one. You can't do it yourself any more than the people you accuse of doing it could possibly do it themselves. That just isn't how reality works.

To point out the straw here:

"too trivial / too small to have any real-world meaning"

is not the same as:

Race is a social construct and doesn't meet the scientific biological definition of a subspecies. At the gene level, humans are not significantly different.
The part you italicized and said is different from the other stuff is identical to the part I made blue, and is the only basis anybody's given for the claim I made red (which I am not disputing for the moment but note that the claim itself has not been supported or even defined). So what you're objecting to must be that the part you italicized fails to include the part I made green. That's not claiming you said something you didn't (straw man); it's just talking about one thing you said and not another. Also, a straw man would be something easier to refute than the actual claim, and in this case, he actually did you a favor; the part he didn't bring up is the most obviously false, easiest-to-refute part.
 
Devlo, I'm glad you put down your scotch glass (guessing...) and posted again. Was feeling lonely here...
 
Publishing an article isn't the same thing as the APA endorsing their view.
Correct me if there is something more current, but the last I heard the APA recognizes and agrees that there are statistically significant differences in IQ between races that is not explained by test bias. On the issue as to if those differences are due to genetics, they say it is inconclusive.
 
I was a peer reviewer for at least one of his articles, and vice versa. He is definitely a race realist. Wonder what I am?

If you agree with Rushton's personal views regarding race? A racist. This isn't a dig, Rushton believes reprehensible things about the races of individuals that he doesn't let slip into his academic work...overtly. These reprehensible things are termed "racism", if you agree with these reprehensible things you are a racist.

On a side note, could you link us to his paper and your review of said paper? While you're at it, can you link us to your paper and his review?

I asked him about the penis study, and it was a funny explanation that made sense to me. I'm not comfortable sharing it though.

Which study? The one where he was reprimanded for paying college students to tell him about their self-reported sexual activities or the one where he was citing unscientific pornographic material?

In anycase, a number of years back I got into a discussion with an individual who claimed to have irrefutable video evidence that the US was secretly owned by the British Royal Family. When I asked to see this video he politely stated that he could not share it. This statement of yours is remarkably similar.

I did apply for a Pioneer Fund grant, but he rejected me. I'd apply for one again, but I need a genetics expert and apparently I'd rather post here than try to get the next publication....!

That's nice, but doesn't really seem to add anything other than an attempt to pad your alleged expertise in the field of...whatever.
 
Correct me if there is something more current, but the last I heard the APA recognizes and agrees that there are statistically significant differences in IQ between races that is not explained by test bias. On the issue as to if those differences are due to genetics, they say it is inconclusive.

Somewhat, yes. This quote was taken from the Enotes article on race and intelligence.

The American Psychological Association has said that while there are differences in average IQ between racial groups, and there is no conclusive evidence for environmental explanations, "there is certainly no [direct empirical] support for a genetic interpretation," and no adequate explanation for the racial IQ gap is presently available.

Basically, yes, the data is inconclusive but they're a bit more definitive that empirical evidence proving genetics plays a major part in the IQ disparity between "races" is simply not there.
 
If you agree with Rushton's personal views regarding race? A racist. This isn't a dig, Rushton believes reprehensible things about the races of individuals that he doesn't let slip into his academic work...overtly. These reprehensible things are termed "racism", if you agree with these reprehensible things you are a racist.

On a side note, could you link us to his paper and your review of said paper? While you're at it, can you link us to your paper and his review?

I'll link the paper he reviewed, but not comfortable doing anything else:

http://www.csuohio.edu/business/academics/mlr/documents/Pesta_08_intell_race_iq.pdf


Which study? The one where he was reprimanded for paying college students to tell him about their self-reported sexual activities or the one where he was citing unscientific pornographic material?

That's the one!

fwiw, I don't think the evidence suggests penis size varies by race.


That's nice, but doesn't really seem to add anything other than an attempt to pad your alleged expertise in the field of...whatever.

Agreed.
 
I'm just going to give up now and assume that further prodding in this direction is going to result in more stone-walling.
 
Posted above re my discussion of Wade's book. Would be interested in those studies suggesting otherwise (though it's possible SG linked these already; too busy replying here for now...).

where exactly?
 
where exactly?

It's from the book, "before the dawn," by nick wade. I'll gladly loan you my electronic copy of the book if you send me an email: bpesta22@cs.com.

Selective citation from Wade’s book in my post here, so I hope there is some continuity when reading this. I also submit this is fair use, as I cite it for educational purposes, and the book is 322 pages long…

“…people of different races may hold in their genetics essential clues to human history since the fragmentation of the ancestral human population 50,000 years ago. Races presumably developed in part in response to the pressures experienced by each population, and the genetic changes involved in race may allow those pressures to be identified. …

…the starting point for the emergence of human races would have been the dispersal, within Africa, from the ancestral homeland some 50,000 years ago. Before people left for the world beyond, the human population in Africa had apparently fragmented, doubtless by geographical distance, into several different populations. As already noted, those who left Africa belonged to just one of these populations, those descended from the L3 branch of the mitochondrial DNA tree. They carried away in their genes only a subset of the African genetic diversity, meaning only some of the alleles of each gene. That fact alone set them on a potentially different evolutionary path…

…the emigrants eventually spread out over the rest of the globe and themselves fragmented into many even smaller populations. The smaller a population, the greater is the force of genetic drift, which reduces the num-ber of available alleles. Without interbreeding to keep the human gene pool mixed, the populations of each continent or region would over time have be¬come more distinct and less like the others….

…besides drift, another differentiating force on the world’s separate hu¬man populations would have been natural selection. Selection may have pressed particularly hard on the people who left the African homeland, since they would have had to adapt to radically new diet, terrain and climates. A particularly striking example of selection is a recently discovered gene vari¬ant that causes pale skin in Caucasians. Almost all African and Asians have the same, ancient form of the gene, which is known at present as SLC24A5. Some 99% or more of Europeans have a new version, which must have arisen after Caucasians and East Asians had become separate populations. The new version presumably became almost universal among Caucasians be¬cause the pale skin it conferred was of overwhelming advantage, whether for reasons of health or sexual attractiveness or both. A different gene, yet to be discovered, must give East Asians their pale skin…

…Marcus Feldman of Stanford University reached a very similar conclu¬sion. Instead of examining just a few markers, or sites on the DNA, as many previous studies had done, Feldman and his colleagues looked at 377 sites throughout the genome, a larger and more representative sample. This was done for each of 1,000 people from 52 populations around the world. A com¬puter was then instructed to group the individuals, based on their DNA dif¬ferences at the 377 sites, into clusters. They fell naturally into 5 clusters, corresponding to their five continents of origin—Africa, western Eurasia (Europe, the Middle East, and the Indian subcontinent), East Asia, Oceania and the Americas…

…Feldman’s method gives a glimpse of how deeply genetic markers may be able to reach into population history. The computer program used to sort the genome samples into continental clusters could also split an individual’s genome into different parts if the person was of mixed ancestry. People from the Hazara and Uighur of Central Asia, long a crossroads between east and west, emerged with genomes roughly half Caucasian and half East Asian in origin. The Surui, a fairly isolated people of Brazil, have genomes that are entirely American (in terms of the computer program’s 5 racial clusters…

…but people can now be objectively assigned to their continent of origin, in other words to their race, by genetic markers such as those used by Feldman. And Lewontin’s characterization of the differences he had found as trivial was as much a political as a scientific opinion. The degree of differentiation he had measured in the human population was similar to other estimates that put the value of global FST as between 10 and 15%. Sewall Wright, one of the three founders of population genetics and the inventor of the FST measure, com-mented that “if racial differences this large were seen in another species, they would be called subspecies."
 
It's from the book, "before the dawn," by nick wade. I'll gladly loan you my electronic copy of the book if you send me an email: bpesta22@cs.com.

Selective citation from Wade’s book in my post here, so I hope there is some continuity when reading this. I also submit this is fair use, as I cite it for educational purposes, and the book is 322 pages long…

“…people of different races may hold in their genetics essential clues to human history since the fragmentation of the ancestral human population 50,000 years ago. Races presumably developed in part in response to the pressures experienced by each population, and the genetic changes involved in race may allow those pressures to be identified. …

…the starting point for the emergence of human races would have been the dispersal, within Africa, from the ancestral homeland some 50,000 years ago. Before people left for the world beyond, the human population in Africa had apparently fragmented, doubtless by geographical distance, into several different populations. As already noted, those who left Africa belonged to just one of these populations, those descended from the L3 branch of the mitochondrial DNA tree. They carried away in their genes only a subset of the African genetic diversity, meaning only some of the alleles of each gene. That fact alone set them on a potentially different evolutionary path…

…the emigrants eventually spread out over the rest of the globe and themselves fragmented into many even smaller populations. The smaller a population, the greater is the force of genetic drift, which reduces the num-ber of available alleles. Without interbreeding to keep the human gene pool mixed, the populations of each continent or region would over time have be¬come more distinct and less like the others….

…besides drift, another differentiating force on the world’s separate hu¬man populations would have been natural selection. Selection may have pressed particularly hard on the people who left the African homeland, since they would have had to adapt to radically new diet, terrain and climates. A particularly striking example of selection is a recently discovered gene vari¬ant that causes pale skin in Caucasians. Almost all African and Asians have the same, ancient form of the gene, which is known at present as SLC24A5. Some 99% or more of Europeans have a new version, which must have arisen after Caucasians and East Asians had become separate populations. The new version presumably became almost universal among Caucasians be¬cause the pale skin it conferred was of overwhelming advantage, whether for reasons of health or sexual attractiveness or both. A different gene, yet to be discovered, must give East Asians their pale skin…

…Marcus Feldman of Stanford University reached a very similar conclu¬sion. Instead of examining just a few markers, or sites on the DNA, as many previous studies had done, Feldman and his colleagues looked at 377 sites throughout the genome, a larger and more representative sample. This was done for each of 1,000 people from 52 populations around the world. A com¬puter was then instructed to group the individuals, based on their DNA dif¬ferences at the 377 sites, into clusters. They fell naturally into 5 clusters, corresponding to their five continents of origin—Africa, western Eurasia (Europe, the Middle East, and the Indian subcontinent), East Asia, Oceania and the Americas…

…Feldman’s method gives a glimpse of how deeply genetic markers may be able to reach into population history. The computer program used to sort the genome samples into continental clusters could also split an individual’s genome into different parts if the person was of mixed ancestry. People from the Hazara and Uighur of Central Asia, long a crossroads between east and west, emerged with genomes roughly half Caucasian and half East Asian in origin. The Surui, a fairly isolated people of Brazil, have genomes that are entirely American (in terms of the computer program’s 5 racial clusters…

…but people can now be objectively assigned to their continent of origin, in other words to their race, by genetic markers such as those used by Feldman. And Lewontin’s characterization of the differences he had found as trivial was as much a political as a scientific opinion. The degree of differentiation he had measured in the human population was similar to other estimates that put the value of global FST as between 10 and 15%. Sewall Wright, one of the three founders of population genetics and the inventor of the FST measure, com-mented that “if racial differences this large were seen in another species, they would be called subspecies."

oh, when you said " genetic measure" i was under the impression you were talking about the haplogroups. Now its clear that you didn't.


here an interesting read about the study the book is talking about.

http://newsreel.org/guides/race/whatdiff.htm
 
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We need to agree to disagree-- you may have the last comment, but the variables you picked here do not correlate with themselves and so cannot combine to scale people in any useful or reliable way. That to me defines arbitrary.
So blondes don't have blue eyes as often than blacks have brown eyes? Ever been to Scandinavia? I could look up which blood groups dominate in Scandinavian populations.


It doesn't matter, though, because you missed the point. The point is someone has taken racial features and found a cluster of genetic markers that consistently predict the person will have those features. That is your evidence! You said so a dozen times.

But I can show you one can do the same thing for ANY cluster of features, no matter how common or rare said clusters actually are, and find the same evidence!

So what else makes your (or Wade's) racial identifiers different from the same thing given any cluster of traits?
 
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it reminds me somewhat of the pattern searching done by bible code fanatics and numerologists etc.
 
How else would you prove that race has a genetic basis? The redundancy *is* the proof.
You need to define "genetic basis" in this context. We are using the terms differently.

Everyone has physical traits that have a genetic basis.

What isn't genetic is a clearly delineated subset of people that constitute a biologic grouping consistent with how biologists group species and subspecies.


You can pick any grouping of traits you want, label the group whatever you want (a race, an ethnic group, whatever) and find the cluster of genetic markers which will predict if an individual will be in the group or not.
 
You've already been shown the non-arbitrary allele clusters, and their distribution map. Nobody made those that way. They're just there, and that's just the way they are.

Indeed. I can understand that there can be a reasonable discussion about the choice of wording for the groups that consistently agree with past racial classifications, I just can't understand the utter denial of it being based on biological realities. Like I said earlier to ponderingturtle:
The fact that we can trace with pretty darn accurate certainty, in very notable agreement with past morphological, lineages and where the genome comes out in more or less the same groupings as the older anthropologists did, is more telling for me to the validity of the biological weight of race than its social one. But as you said, "race" as people use it is often in a colloqual way, but that doesn't make the biological reality of the observed differences and groups go away. So, ultimately, like I've said repeatedly; it tends to boil down to a philosophical argument about 'what' to call it (i.e a semantical argument).

I do not agree that "jewish" is a race. I believe, while other usages exist, ashkenazi jewish chiefly and predominately denotes a specific genetic cluster of a people still very much identifiable as such through dna markers, where they have less distance inbetween each other than with other non-ashkenazi europeans/western people, in particular this is evident via their y-chromosome lineage. With regards to the Lemba people in Africa, it's because of our understanding of racial differences (or whatever term you wish to use in its stead) that we could verify some of the historical claims they themselves make about their jewish heritage. If none of the above groups had been definable, at all, by their genetic breed-group heritage (see, didn't use "race"), then it would've been impossible to verify by means of tracing markers since these would mean absolutely zilch as "jewish", according to some, has nothing to do with genetic groupings. But, as it is, they are at least to a notable degree definable as such, in a biological reality (by whatever term you fancy). Interestingly it seems it would've been mostly jewish males interbreeding with african population there, as opposed to the women, and this would explain the high frequency of the paternal CMH found while a lack of a maternal equivalent.

Again: this is why, for example, Coon's own groupings of human beings (many times his added musings and elaborations were beyond reason) matches up quite well with Sforsa's volumnous work and studies on the human genome project; showing the basic, prime groups and genetic distances inbetween them amongst human beings.

We can argue about 'what' terms to call these "phenomenas" but nevertheless the biological base for the observed genetic groups come out as they are more or less consistently either way.
 
Indeed. I can understand that there can be a reasonable discussion about the choice of wording for the groups that consistently agree with past racial classifications, I just can't understand the utter denial of it being based on biological realities. Like I said earlier to ponderingturtle:
This makes the same cross definition argument as bpesta22. It amounts to a straw man since no one is saying racial characteristics are not biologically based.


...matches up quite well with Sforsa's volumnous work and studies on the human genome project; showing the basic, prime groups and genetic distances inbetween them amongst human beings.

We can argue about 'what' terms to call these "phenomenas" but nevertheless the biological base for the observed genetic groups come out as they are more or less consistently either way.
This is why people have such a hard time shifting paradigms.

There is nothing wrong with tying racial groups to geographical heritage. Latitude is the main driver of skin color evolution. And there are additional geographical influences on heritage such as diseases and epidemics, Malaria and Plague, are current examples and I suspect a few thousand years in the future we may see the evolutionary effect of the HIV pandemic.

Because geography correlates with certain features, these features do have a cluster effect, genetically. While we are a highly mobile society, not every individual is highly mobile.

But as far as biological taxonomies go, such features are only one grouping of many possible groupings that are equally as compelling as a subgroup. Despite bpesta22's dismissal of the importance of blood types as a subgroup, the amount of genetic code responsible for blood type is significant and also represents a "basic, prime group [with] genetic distances inbetween them amongst human beings."

Think of it this way. An individual could belong to a major familial group with type A blood and another belong to a major familial group with type 0 blood. Both families migrate within the same population group to a higher latitude. The population, after a few thousands years, develops lighter skin. The 0 & A blood type groups continue since offspring are either one or the other.

So which of the two familial lines is a taxonomic group? They both are. It's equally legitimate to look at either subgroup, the effect of latitude or the effect of the original mutation(s) that resulted in the two different blood type groups. Both are the result of family lines of descent.

Both group's genetics were affected by latitude, but both are not in the same group when one looks at different, equally genetic, & equally familial grouping factors.


To make it more clear, say you had blue and red pencils and blue and red pens. Do you group them as pencils and pens or as red and blue writing instruments? You could chose either grouping and make social arguments for your choice. But neither grouping has more weight than the other without a social construct rationale.
 
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This makes the same cross definition argument as bpesta22. It amounts to a straw man since no one is saying racial characteristics are not biologically based.

If race can only reasonably be a term for social/socio-economic contexts, which in my understanding is what has in part been argued here (it has nothing to do with science according to DC, for example, equivalent to numerologists playing around etc, which is just nonsense), then it isn't really a straw-man. Or, it is and I have not understand some of the the given arguments.

But as far as biological taxonomies go, such features are only one grouping of many possible groupings that are equally as compelling as a subgroup. Despite bpesta22's dismissal of the importance of blood types as a subgroup, the amount of genetic code responsible for blood type is significant and also represents a "basic, prime group [with] genetic distances inbetween them amongst human beings."

I have noticed that group-lineage displayed through a convergent look at dna-markers tend to match up with much else which we classically used to differ (like morphology), at large, amongst racial/biogeographical/ethnic groups of humans. In fact, it is dna which we have used for a few decades now to see how different human groups have wandered around the globe, and adding that certain groups are more closer related to each other than others, all within a framework of terms more or less agreeable with known racial groups. Now, this can either be a pure coincidence or... those groups, call them racial or what have you, are still distinct enough populations that we can identify a person's racial lineage and/or admixture thereof fairly well. It can't the former (e.g coincidence), which it would have to be if it was just compact of socio-economical accountability.

To make it more clear, say you had blue and red pencils and blue and red pens. Do you group them as pencils and pens or as red and blue writing instruments? You could chose either grouping and make social arguments for your choice. But neither grouping has more weight than the other without a social construct rationale.

And yet the fundamental group-relatedness is governed by the same noted 'group-dna' which is more in agreement with biology than social constructions, i.e the reason why even bone-marrow donors of the same race make-up can and often are more necessary than any socially determined avenue of family or group (stephfather, brother in-law, social class group, religious group). If it is about the genetic heritage, and race classically is (or whatever you wish to call it) then it should at the very least be treated as a biological reality. I've noticed that there are those here who rejects such a treatment of it, and that I do not understand. The extent to which we should adhere to any rigid absolutism of it is quite discussable yes, but not that something-to-be-named like so reasonably exists as a biological reality.

Maybe you're not even disagreeing with me all that much, just that we're (perhaps) talking about potatoe and potato from different angles?
 
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the concept of race is based on physical appearance of people and not based on genetics / science. sure most physical features are defined by genetics, but that doesn't make race a scientific construct.

Haplogroups on the other hand are based on genetics / science and are a scientific construct.

that is my point, and i still stand by that.
 

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