Race is a human/social construct.

Also, the idea of "because the human species has not been formally grouped into subspecies, differences between ancestral groups that are on a comparable level to those between ancestral groups of other species that are considered subspecies do not exist" is an argument from ignorance--a fallacy.
This straw man suggests you are missing the crux of the argument.

It isn't that there are no groups. There are lots of groups and lots of ways to group human populations.

Pick a category to group your populations into: That is a social construct.**

What you don't find: Divisions matching the standard genetic categories used to group other animal species. That would be a scientific construct.**



**Using these terms as they've been used in the thread.
 
And low and behold after all those years of isolation one still finds the genetic difference between any two A. Aboriginals to be the same % as the difference between any A. Aboriginal and a European settler now on that continent or an American Eskimo whose never left the North.

Can you prove that statement? Where does that link say that?

That means Mayr was 95 years old when the first full human genome was sequenced.

I fail to see why that is relevant, unless you mean to imply there was something wrong with him at age 95.

It turns out this average number of differences is consistent between two people from the same town, two people from the same continent and between two people from different continents.

Where does it say that? Does this take into account people whose ancestors were from the same town 10 generations ago, the same continent 10 generations ago, and different continents 10 generations ago? Continents =/= schmagoogie. There are objective biological differences between Indians and Chinese, yet they are on the same continent.

In many parts of the world, groups have mixed in such a way that many individuals have relatively recent ancestors from widely separated regions

This is so obvious that it is almost painful. Latin America provides the most obvious example.

[Although genetic analyses of large numbers of loci can produce estimates of the percentage of a person's ancestors coming from various continental populations (Shriver et al. 2003; Bamshad et al. 2004), these estimates may assume a false distinctiveness of the parental populations, since human groups have exchanged mates from local to continental scales throughout history (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Hoerder 2002).[/quote]

Not always. There was no interbreeding between Australian aborigines and Swedes until recently. There was no interbreeding between Inca and Spanish until a few centuries ago.

Even with large numbers of markers, information for estimating admixture proportions of individuals or groups is limited, and estimates typically will have wide confidence intervals (Pfaff et al. 2004).

This does not invalidate the fact that differences exist, as I'm sure you agree.

Population groups within the human species (or subspecies as lomiller points out) have just not been isolated in the way biologists consider necessary to divide the groups up into distinct genetic populations.

I really don't see that in the links you posted. Also, your highlighting of text makes my eyes hurt and makes it difficult for me to concentrate/read.
 
This straw man suggests you are missing the crux of the argument.

It isn't that there are no groups. There are lots of groups and lots of ways to group human populations.

Pick a category to group your populations into: That is a social construct.**

What you don't find: Divisions matching the standard genetic categories used to group other animal species. That would be a scientific construct.**



**Using these terms as they've been used in the thread.

Can you show that the divisions matching the standard genetic categories used to group other animal species exist between the Siberian tiger and the Bengal tiger?
 
Some people deny that there are objective biological differences between schmagoogies (some people do have a problem with the word "race"). Whether the difference is sufficient to label varying human schmagoogies as different subspecies is secondary to this discussion, and is inherently somewhat subjective. There are contentions among scientists already as to whether groups of other organisms constitute subspecies or not, and that matter is not even plagued by sociological controversy.

Also,

Another fallacy used in this thread is the whole subspecies thing distilled basically to this line of circular reasoning:

"There are no objective differences between human schmagoogies because human schmagoogies are not classified as subspecies. Human schmagoogies are not classified as subspecies, therefore there are no objective differences between human schmagoogies".

This to me appears to be the crux of lomiller's argument.

no i think you misrepresent his argument.
he seems to think Humans are not grouped into subspecies because there is not enough differences to grant this. not the other way around.

just because we can see obvious differences doesn't mean theses differences are enough to grant subspecies grouping.
 
Not assigning homework here, but it seems like everything I read contradicts the claims made here.

Here's a nature article:

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html

It seems to cover many of angles we discussed above, and seems to reach a compromise?:

Data from many sources have shown that humans are genetically homogeneous and that genetic variation tends to be shared widely among populations. Genetic variation is geographically structured, as expected from the partial isolation of human populations during much of their history. Because traditional concepts of race are in turn correlated with geography, it is inaccurate to state that race is "biologically meaningless." On the other hand, because they have been only partially isolated, human populations are seldom demarcated by precise genetic boundaries. Substantial overlap can therefore occur between populations, invalidating the concept that populations (or races) are discrete types.
So race is a crude, fuzzy biological and social category?
 
Actually, people DO deny that there are objective biological differences between human schmagoogies.

yet nobody in this thread claiming there is objective biological differences to grant grouping into subspecies was able to provide sufficient evidence for such biological differences. morphological differences are obvious and not denied, what is debated however is the genetic differences. where is the evidence for this?
 
Not assigning homework here, but it seems like everything I read contradicts the claims made here.

Here's a nature article:

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html

It seems to cover many of angles we discussed above, and seems to reach a compromise?:

Data from many sources have shown that humans are genetically homogeneous and that genetic variation tends to be shared widely among populations. Genetic variation is geographically structured, as expected from the partial isolation of human populations during much of their history. Because traditional concepts of race are in turn correlated with geography, it is inaccurate to state that race is "biologically meaningless." On the other hand, because they have been only partially isolated, human populations are seldom demarcated by precise genetic boundaries. Substantial overlap can therefore occur between populations, invalidating the concept that populations (or races) are discrete types.
So race is a crude, fuzzy biological and social category?

because they have been only partially isolated, human populations are seldom demarcated by precise genetic boundaries.

which is one of my arguments, so its not contradicted but confirmed.
 
...arbitrary to use skin color and not blood groups to identify 'race'.
And once again, here comes the already-debunked pretense that it's about skin color alone and nothing else. What's the point in repeating a lie that you've already been caught at and know won't fool anybody?

Anyway, about the already-debunked blood-type herring, here's another new way to debunk it. When you divide a species up by different traits, you get different groups. If you're using certain blood proteins & immune factors, you get blood-type groups. If you're using left/right-handedness, you get handedness groups. If you're using height, you get different height groups. If you're using a combination of various traits including skin color which all happen to be linked to each other and to certain regions of the world, you get races. The fact that each one such grouping method can be done has no effect on the fact that another one can too, any more than the fact that grouping cars by color proves that they can't also be grouped by engine displacement. So what in the world is supposed to be the connection or relevance?

A biological reason why dividing groups by race isn't arbitrary.

Haplogroups are not arbitrary.
You've already been shown the non-arbitrary allele clusters, and their distribution map. Nobody made those that way. They're just there, and that's just the way they are.

Using outward appearance you would have a family tree with multiple errors.
Every genetic trait is still inherited from ancestors whether it happens to code for a visible trait or an invisible one.

What do you mean by race? Many Victorian biologists meant that the "white race" was superior to the "black race" who were superior to apes.
That's not what the races are, but just something about them. A lack of a superiority/inferiority spectrum to attribute to them does not make them go away.

They saw a sliding scale onto which they put humans, mainly according to skin colour and nothing else.
That's simply false. Even before genetics, there were at least a couple dozen observable, measurable differences. (Gould mentions this when he says that some of them, such as the height of the navel, seem to be pretty silly trifles, but he doesn't pretend that that means they didn't exist.)

there are always genetic differences, but are they enough to put them into groups in a meaningful way?
Maybe not, but an argument about whether there are groups at all is entirely different from an argument about their "meaningfulness".

This is another classic piece of race-denier BS. You claim to be arguing that races don't exist, but you know they do exist and you know that everybody knows you know they do exist, so instead you switch to arguing something else about them, like whether they're "meaningful" or "significant" or "important" and so on. At best it's a goal-post shift, defending one position while pretending that that defense applies to another that you're actually abandoning. At worst it's both that and a well-poisoning straw-man, trying to position the other side as being in favor of assigning some vague "importance" to race.

If the different groups with different physical and genetic traits exist in different parts of the world, then there they are. That's existence. That's all there is to it.

And despite the claims to think that they don't, the people making such claims still have yet to produce one single argument that they don't. They just keep throwing out a bunch of arguments to prove some other point instead, one which isn't in dispute or isn't even related to the subject.

But you have to recognize how fast the research in genetic science is moving.
One of these days, you should embellish on these vague allusions about how much genetic knowledge has increased since some past time, by adding to it some specific bit of knowledge that actually has something specific to do with the subject of the existence of races.

Nobody denies that there are differences between humans, the debate is if those differences are enough to put them into different subspecies.
The claim was that they don't exist. How big those differences are is a different question which has, built in to it, an acknowledgement of the fact that they do exist, because it would make no sense to discuss the greater-than-zero magnitude of something that doesn't.

If you don't want to defend the claim of non-existence, that's no problem, but then the non-self-contradictory thing to do would be to acknowledge that you have no defense for the claim that they don't exist and don't intend to try to defend it.
 
Can you prove that statement? Where does that link say that?

Where does it say that? Does this take into account people whose ancestors were from the same town 10 generations ago, the same continent 10 generations ago, and different continents 10 generations ago? Continents =/= schmagoogie. There are objective biological differences between Indians and Chinese, yet they are on the same continent.
It's in the Mary-Claire King University of WA lecture on the subject I linked to on about page 7 (and earlier in the thread as well I believe).


I fail to see why that is relevant, unless you mean to imply there was something wrong with him at age 95.
The majority of the evidence that we are discussing was discovered after Mayr's day.



There was no interbreeding between Australian aborigines and Swedes until recently. There was no interbreeding between Inca and Spanish until a few centuries ago.
And yet the genomes remain so closely related as to still not be clearly considered separate subspecies.

Taking the other side of the argument, the A. Aboriginal population comes closest to meeting the criteria of a subspecies. That would give us two human population groups. Does that somehow justify the other population group divisions where isolation has never been complete?
 
...arbitrary to use skin color and not blood groups to identify 'race'.
And once again, here comes the already-debunked pretense that it's about skin color alone and nothing else. What's the point in repeating a lie that you've already been caught at and know won't fool anybody?

Anyway, about the already-debunked blood-type herring, here's another new way to debunk it. When you divide a species up by different traits, you get different groups. If you're using certain blood proteins & immune factors, you get blood-type groups. If you're using left/right-handedness, you get handedness groups. If you're using height, you get different height groups. If you're using a combination of various traits including skin color which all happen to be linked to each other and to certain regions of the world, you get races. The only way your habit of bringing up other kinds of grouping in a "debate" about this particular method of grouping makes any sense is if you're asserting, or hoping we will think, that the existence of one kind of grouping can prevent another one from existing. That's like saying that grouping cars by color disproves the existence of different engine displacements. Clearly that can't be the case, but it has to be how your argument works, because there's no other way non-racial grouping could be relevant here at all.

A biological reason why dividing groups by race isn't arbitrary.

Haplogroups are not arbitrary.
You've already been shown the non-arbitrary allele clusters, and their distribution map. Nobody made those that way. They're just there, and that's just the way they are.

Using outward appearance you would have a family tree with multiple errors.
Every genetic trait is still inherited from ancestors whether it happens to code for a visible trait or an invisible one.

What do you mean by race? Many Victorian biologists meant that the "white race" was superior to the "black race" who were superior to apes.
That's not what the races are, but just something about them. A lack of a superiority/inferiority spectrum to attribute to them does not make them go away.

They saw a sliding scale onto which they put humans, mainly according to skin colour and nothing else.
That's simply false. Even before genetics, there were at least a couple dozen observable, measurable differences. (Gould mentions this when he says that some of them, such as the height of the navel, seem to be pretty silly trifles, but he doesn't pretend that that means they didn't exist.)

there are always genetic differences, but are they enough to put them into groups in a meaningful way?
Maybe not, but an argument about whether there are groups at all is entirely different from an argument about their "meaningfulness".

This is another classic piece of race-denier BS. You claim to be arguing that races don't exist, but you know they do exist and you know that everybody knows you know they do exist, so instead you switch to arguing something else about them, like whether they're "meaningful" or "significant" or "important" and so on. At best it's a goal-post shift, defending one position while pretending that that defense applies to another that you're actually abandoning. At worst it's both that and a well-poisoning straw-man, trying to position the other side as being in favor of assigning some vague "importance" to race.

If the different groups with different physical and genetic traits exist in different parts of the world, then there they are. That's existence. That's all there is to it.

And despite the claims to think that they don't, the people making such claims still have yet to produce one single argument that they don't. They just keep throwing out a bunch of arguments to prove some other point instead, one which isn't in dispute or isn't even related to the subject. (PS: The two videos you posted earlier are other good examples of this. You posted them in the middle of an argument that races don't exist, but neither video actually says that. They just say that races aren't usually very useful in most medical contexts... and the second one even directly acknowledges that they do exist when he explicitly talks about identifying what part(s) of the world someone's ancestors lived in by checking his/her genes.)

But you have to recognize how fast the research in genetic science is moving.
One of these days, you should embellish on these vague allusions about how much genetic knowledge has increased since some past time, by adding to it some specific bit of knowledge that actually has something specific to do with the subject of the existence of races.

Nobody denies that there are differences between humans, the debate is if those differences are enough to put them into different subspecies.
The claim was that they don't exist. How big those differences are is a different question which has, built in to it, an acknowledgement of the fact that they do exist, because it would make no sense to discuss the greater-than-zero magnitude of something that doesn't.

If you don't want to defend the claim of non-existence, that's no problem, but then the non-self-contradictory thing to do would be to acknowledge that you have no defense for the claim that they don't exist and don't intend to try to defend it.

morphological differences are obvious and not denied, what is debated however is the genetic differences
That must mean you're asserting that the morphological traits in question are not caused by genes. I would LOVE to see the reasoning behind that, especially for the ones whose causative genes have already been identified.
 
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Why are the traits used to describe race seen as arbitrary? The traits bundle together statistically; they are highly salient, visually; they have been used extensively for social classifications; much of human history focuses on issues regarding race.

Hair color, handedness, agreeableness and nose length. These are arbitrary traits in that they just now came to me at random. They don't co-vary; they seem less salient, visually, presence/absence of each trait doesn't seem to predict anything.

There's enough degrees of freedom in the genome to find left handed, agreeable big nosed blondes clustering somewhere while right-handed disagreeable, small-nosed reds cluster somewhere else?
 
And once again, here comes the already-debunked pretense that it's about skin color alone and nothing else. What's the point in repeating a lie that you've already been caught at and know won't fool anybody?

Anyway, about the already-debunked blood-type herring, here's another new way to debunk it. When you divide a species up by different traits, you get different groups. If you're using certain blood proteins & immune factors, you get blood-type groups. If you're using left/right-handedness, you get handedness groups. If you're using height, you get different height groups. If you're using a combination of various traits including skin color which all happen to be linked to each other and to certain regions of the world, you get races. The fact that each one such grouping method can be done has no effect on the fact that another one can too, any more than the fact that grouping cars by color proves that they can't also be grouped by engine displacement. So what in the world is supposed to be the connection or relevance?

You've already been shown the non-arbitrary allele clusters, and their distribution map. Nobody made those that way. They're just there, and that's just the way they are.

Every genetic trait is still inherited from ancestors whether it happens to code for a visible trait or an invisible one.

That's not what the races are, but just something about them. A lack of a superiority/inferiority spectrum to attribute to them does not make them go away.

That's simply false. Even before genetics, there were at least a couple dozen observable, measurable differences. (Gould mentions this when he says that some of them, such as the height of the navel, seem to be pretty silly trifles, but he doesn't pretend that that means they didn't exist.)

Maybe not, but an argument about whether there are groups at all is entirely different from an argument about their "meaningfulness".

This is another classic piece of race-denier BS. You claim to be arguing that races don't exist, but you know they do exist and you know that everybody knows you know they do exist, so instead you switch to arguing something else about them, like whether they're "meaningful" or "significant" or "important" and so on. At best it's a goal-post shift, defending one position while pretending that that defense applies to another that you're actually abandoning. At worst it's both that and a well-poisoning straw-man, trying to position the other side as being in favor of assigning some vague "importance" to race.

If the different groups with different physical and genetic traits exist in different parts of the world, then there they are. That's existence. That's all there is to it.

And despite the claims to think that they don't, the people making such claims still have yet to produce one single argument that they don't. They just keep throwing out a bunch of arguments to prove some other point instead, one which isn't in dispute or isn't even related to the subject.

One of these days, you should embellish on these vague allusions about how much genetic knowledge has increased since some past time, by adding to it some specific bit of knowledge that actually has something specific to do with the subject of the existence of races.

The claim was that they don't exist. How big those differences are is a different question which has, built in to it, an acknowledgement of the fact that they do exist, because it would make no sense to discuss the greater-than-zero magnitude of something that doesn't.

If you don't want to defend the claim of non-existence, that's no problem, but then the non-self-contradictory thing to do would be to acknowledge that you have no defense for the claim that they don't exist and don't intend to try to defend it.

the topic is that Race is a social construct rather than a scientific one.
the topic is not that there are no differences between humans. we all know there are and we can see them every day. but are those differences grouped enough and different enough to grant the change of scientific taxonomy where Humans are considered a subspecies and are not further split into other groups.
i don't think those differences are grouped enough, too much mixing, not enough isolation, to grant this change in science.

in genetics we have further groupings of humans into haplogroups, i think they are meaningful and pretty accurate, with a scientific / genetic origin.

Race however is a social construct that has no clear definition nor a genetic origin. its not really meaningful nor accurate.
 
Not assigning homework here, but it seems like everything I read contradicts the claims made here.

Here's a nature article:

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html
From your own link:
These clusters are also correlated with some traditional concepts of race, but the correlations are imperfect because genetic variation tends to be distributed in a continuous, overlapping fashion among populations. Therefore, ancestry, or even race, may in some cases prove useful in the biomedical setting, but direct assessment of disease-related genetic variation will ultimately yield more accurate and beneficial information.
That's the problem with only reading the titles. :rolleyes:


So race is a crude, fuzzy biological and social category?
Racial divisions are best determined using social and ethnic criteria. You can add geographic criteria there and get very rough approximations to genetic sequencing because human migration patterns reflect similar familial inheritance patterns.

The divisions are not naturally occurring biological divisions unless you use different standards than biologists use to classify animal groups.


You just keep skipping over that elephant in the room that doesn't fit your confirmation bias.

Geneticists can come up with the same sequence clusters that correlate with blood groups, height, hair color/type. You name it, then look for the genetic pattern that predicts it, and voilá you have proof that race is genetic.
 
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Now it might appear I'm asking others to do my homework for me, though I did look...

What's the difference between race and subspecies?

Is race a term reserved for humans (such that if the difference were found in a non-human species, we'd call it something, but not race)?

Why must the definition of race be equivalent to the definition of subspecies for it to have scientific meaning (that seems to be a consistent argument here)?
 
Why do you keep accusing me of not reading things? I did see your highlighted point, which I must paste in here...

From your own link:That's the problem with only reading the titles. :rolleyes:

From your own link:

These clusters are also correlated with some traditional concepts of race, but the correlations are imperfect because genetic variation tends to be distributed in a continuous, overlapping fashion among populations.
That's precisely what should happen with fuzzy categories! The point is, the correlations are never zero...


You just keep skipping over that elephant in the room that doesn't fit your confirmation bias.
I'm getting a pot / kettle vibe here.
 
Now it might appear I'm asking others to do my homework for me, though I did look...

What's the difference between race and subspecies?

Is race a term reserved for humans (such that if the difference were found in a non-human species, we'd call it something, but not race)?

Why must the definition of race be equivalent to the definition of subspecies for it to have scientific meaning (that seems to be a consistent argument here)?

as my first language is not English and in my language in the daily usage of Race is mostly used for Dog breeds, i don't really care the linguistic details.
i rather look at what people mean. and no matter how you call the groups you want to exist. the argument is that the groupings of humans the way it is done is very inaccurate and limited to physical appearance and has no basis in science. Science uses more precise criteria in their groupings of animals and plants.
 
SG

If you can cite me a study showing arbitrary traits that cluster in meaningful ways, I'd likely concede, admit I was wrong, and change my world view.
 
as my first language is not English and in my language in the daily usage of Race is mostly used for Dog breeds, i don't really care the linguistic details.
i rather look at what people mean. and no matter how you call the groups you want to exist. the argument is that the groupings of humans the way it is done is very inaccurate and limited to physical appearance and has no basis in science. Science uses more precise criteria in their groupings of animals and plants.

But didn't you just agree with this comment I highlighted from the Nature article?!

"it is inaccurate to state that race is "biologically meaningless""
 

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