Quotes From The Koran

[Jesse]

I came across these at Islam-Terrorism, Inc.

(Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

(Koran 5: 33-34) "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

(Koran 22: 19-22) "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."

(Koran ??:??-??) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 69:30-37) "(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat."

(Koran 76: 4) "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire."

 

[justsaygnosis]

The point of the post is....?????

 

[Jesse]

Perhaps this information provides a basis on which to argue whether Islam encourages violence.

 

[Baker]

Here or a few more if further translations.
To add to Jesse’s list.

002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191

008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.065

 

[Peter Soderqvist]

The Bible!

2 Chr.15:13 "Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

Lev.26:29 "And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat."

Dt.28:53 "And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters."

Dt.28:57 "And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them."

2 Kg.6:28-29 "This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him."

Is.9:19-20 "Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm."

Is.49:26 "And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine."

Jer.19:9 " And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend."

Ezek.5:10 "Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers."

Mic.3:2-3 "Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

Zech.11:9 "I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another."

What the Bible says about?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about.htm#top

The Bible and the Koran at the University of Virginia!
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/relig.browse.html

 

[Barkhorn1x]

Yep....

...Islam and Christianity are not good to non-believers!

Next issue please.


Barkhorn.

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

Again Old Testament. Which also builds a case against Islam, as then Islam contains such phrases PLUS the Koran and Hadiths.

As far as I see though there tends to be four main positsions on this issues:

- Christianity and Islam are neutral, both can be used for good or evil.

-Christianity and Islam are equally bad. Generally bad.

-Christianity is worse then Islam. Both are generally bad though.

-Islam is worse then Christianity. Both are generally bad though.

I take the last position mainly because Christians do seem more passive as does the New Testament.

The religion does tend to focus on the "great beyond" more or less saying to "forget material things", Islam though has more of an "take from the infidels" attitude. Islam is also far more strict.

 

[Baker]

Re: The Bible!

2 Chr.15:13 "Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

Lev.26:29 "And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat."

Dt.28:53 "And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters."

Dt.28:57 "And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them."

2 Kg.6:28-29 "This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him."

Is.9:19-20 "Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm."

Is.49:26 "And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine."

Jer.19:9 " And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend."

Ezek.5:10 "Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers."

Mic.3:2-3 "Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

Zech.11:9 "I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another."

What the Bible says about?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about.htm#top

The Bible and the Koran at the University of Virginia!
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/relig.browse.html

More of the Old Testament so tell me Peter which one did the Christians write the Old or New Testament.
And how many of these verses can you find in the New Testament?

 

[Yahzi]

Baked

More of the Old Testament so tell me Peter which one did the Christians write the Old or New Testament.

You seem to be implying that the Old Testament is not a Christian holy book. If this is your argument, please say so explicitly.

But not to us. Tell it to the billion Christians who claim the Old Testament is part of their holy book.


DialecticMaterialist

Islam though has more of an "take from the infidels" attitude. Islam is also far more strict.

Your perspective is simply biased.

The Islam of several centuries ago compared favorably with the Christianity of several centures ago. What this implies to the neutral observer is that both religions allow for remarkable levels of violence, and tend to exhibit or repress that violence as cultural conditions change. The neutral observer would conclude that the differences between Christianity and Islam are neglible.

Finally, you are getting your impression of Islam by reading the Quran. That is (as has been shown) about as accurate as getting your impressions of Christianity by reading the Bible. A neutral observer reading only the Bible would be quite mystified as to why Christians eat pork. Paul's repudiation of the law is the equivalent of Haddith: it is traditional interpretation that is not at all clearly supported by the simple text.

Do you agree with the Fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible? Do you think the majority of Christians do? Do you think Fundamentalists ought to be the standard by which the other 85% of the Christians are judged? No, of course not. Then why do you think it is ok to judge Islam by its fundamentalists and ignore the opinions of the vast majority?

Seriously, quoting the Quran to prove that Islam is violent is like quoting the Bible to prove that Christians can't eat pork.

 

[Baker]

[

You seem to be implying that the Old Testament is not a Christian holy book. If this is your argument, please say so explicitly.

But not to us. Tell it to the billion Christians who claim the Old Testament is part of their holy book.

If you knew any thing about Christianity the New Testament was written to remove the verses in question from the Old Testament so please stop using the same recycled arguments.

 

[Jesse]

False. The Old Testment, shock-filled with violence committed by 'yhwh', the god of jealousy, is an integral aspect of christianity.

 

[Jesse]

This thread is better than I thought.

 

[Yahzi]

If you knew any thing about Christianity the New Testament was written to remove the verses in question from the Old Testament so please stop using the same recycled arguments.

Isn't this exactly what the Muslims are saying? "If you knew anything about Islam, you would know that the verses in question don't apply anymore." The issue is that you don't know anything about Islam. All you have is a few quotes, and as you have just argued, a few quotes from the holy book is inadequate to understand a religion by.

I am not defending Islam or even necessarily attacking Christianity: I am simply asking you to apply the same standards.

That is, taking your theology at face value, which Is a pretty big concession. Jesus never said anything like that. But this is not the place for a theological argument: the point is simply that despite what the Bible says, Christianity is different. So why can't Islam be different that what the Quran says?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Both Muslims and Christians pick and choose which parts of their holy books they'll follow. Islam tends to have more terrorist groups than christians do, but it was not so just a few decades ago. Even the Jewish people have their fare share of terrorist activity.

When it comes down to it, the holy books are full of contradictions that make it simple to pick and choose which verses one will follow. Even the "peaceful" New Testament has verses that give a message of hating non-believers and jews.

 

[Baker]

Isn't this exactly what the Muslims are saying? "If you knew anything about Islam, you would know that the verses in question don't apply anymore." The issue is that you don't know anything about Islam. All you have is a few quotes, and as you have just argued, a few quotes from the holy book is inadequate to understand a religion by.

I am not defending Islam or even necessarily attacking Christianity: I am simply asking you to apply the same standards.

That is, taking your theology at face value, which Is a pretty big concession. Jesus never said anything like that. But this is not the place for a theological argument: the point is simply that despite what the Bible says, Christianity is different. So why can't Islam be different that what the Quran says?

So why can't Islam be different that what the Koran says because most Muslims only go by the Koran just read the links on all of the Human rights violations from Islamic countries they are going strictly, by what the Koran tells them.

The War on Women
http://hrw.org/editorials/2002/women0822.htm

Slavery and Slave Redemption in the Sudan
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/africa/sudanupdate.htm

Saudi Columnist on Women's Rights in Saudi Arabia
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=saudiarabia&ID=SP47203#_ednref1

Briefing to the 59th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights
Iran
http://www.hrw.org/un/chr59/iran.htm#5

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

Your perspective is simply biased.

The Islam of several centuries ago compared favorably with the Christianity of several centures ago.

Well in what ways? In terms of technology mainly, and I attribute that more to enviroment and a head start(i.e. being closer to China and the once Fertile crescent) then Islam's instrinsic merits.

Islamdid have a rationalist tradition though, however that was squashed at around the same time European Christians were having their renaissance. Also notice that what you are talking about four centuries ago.

What this implies to the neutral observer is that both religions allow for remarkable levels of violence, and tend to exhibit or repress that violence as cultural conditions change. The neutral observer would conclude that the differences between Christianity and Islam are neglible.

No, the neutral observer would conclude that enviroment does much to determine technological development and population size on a massive scale.

The neutral observer would not make an unwarranted leap from this of concluding that religions do not have any effect on a society themselves or all religions are equal.

All religions allow for a remarkable level of violence but religions(like other ideologies) are not all equally conductive to violence. Toa rgue for example that Biddhism and Stalinism both allow for equal levels of violence is just absurd.

Just because power, or technological prowress is not completely determined by religion on a massive scale, does not mean they do not effect society or a person's psychology equally.

Finally, you are getting your impression of Islam by reading the Quran. That is (as has been shown) about as accurate as getting your impressions of Christianity by reading the Bible.

And why can't you do this?

A neutral observer reading only the Bible would be quite mystified as to why Christians eat pork. Paul's repudiation of the law is the equivalent of Haddith: it is traditional interpretation that is not at all clearly supported by the simple text.

Yes sometimes interpretation can outweigh scripture. But are we then to assume that the scripture has no relevance...or that we shouldn't go along with a literal reading all things being equal?

Do you agree with the Fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible?

I think often times its the most accurate one given religious context.

Do you think the majority of Christians do?

No.

Do you think Fundamentalists ought to be the standard by which the other 85% of the Christians are judged? No, of course not.

I think you can judge the fundamentalists by the fundamentalists.

Also the fundamentalist interpretation is the most parsimonious. It is also the most in line with past traditions. Other Christians must make up superfluous ad hoc explanations to interpret the Bible their way.

Lastly, you realize a religion is not just mere scripture but interpretation as well. In which case you must accept the fundamentalists as authentic representatives of a religion, as well as their beliefs.

Then why do you think it is ok to judge Islam by its fundamentalists and ignore the opinions of the vast majority?

The vast majority are fundamentalist.

Seriously, quoting the Quran to prove that Islam is violent is like quoting the Bible to prove that Christians can't eat pork.

False analogy. Christians no longer continue the practice, that is observed and they have a rather spurrious rationale for it. We have empirical evidence Christians no longer believe in the old anti-pork laws.

Such empirical evidence is lacking for Islam, who's traditions seem unchanged, as well as interpretation.

You should not assume from the onset that a religious group has abandoned literal religious codes of conduct. Instead you should assume they believe in and follow such codes until given evidence otherwise.

I assume for example when reading about the five pillars of Islam where it says to pray five times a day, that it means, within the religious tradition: pray five times a day. That's a reasonable viewpoint.

Assuming from the onset that Muslims have abandoned this pratice under some rationale is not a reasonable way of looking at it though.

"Well Christians don't eat pork so Muslims might not believe that." is just a non sequitur.

 

[thaiboxerken]

The vast majority (of Muslims) are fundamentalist.

Evidence please.

 

[Baker]

The vast majority (of Muslims) are fundamentalist.

Evidence please.

Muslim militants are practicing mainstream Islam. They are not an extremist minority. Terrorists have not corrupted their religion. Their religion itself is corrupt. Al-Qaeda is not the enemy. They are but a symptom of a much more sinister and widespread disease.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Muslim militants are practicing mainstream Islam. They are not an extremist minority. Terrorists have not corrupted their religion. Their religion itself is corrupt. Al-Qaeda is not the enemy. They are but a symptom of a much more sinister and widespread disease.

I asked for evidence, not ad-nauseum. Please provide statistics or studies, or something other than your opinion.

 

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Muslim militants are practicing mainstream Islam. They are not an extremist minority. Terrorists have not corrupted their religion. Their religion itself is corrupt. Al-Qaeda is not the enemy. They are but a symptom of a much more sinister and widespread disease.

I am inclined to request, as Thai did, for evidence and sources.