Questions for Jesus-Freak

[SezMe]

The AIG people are not stupid or ignorant, they offer alternatives to the vitriol Christians face in atheists everywhere ...

I'll leave the first part on the table untouched and simply remark that Vitriol Street runs both ways and most of the traffic is in the other direction.

 

[RationalReverend]

I'll leave the first part on the table untouched and simply remark that Vitriol Street runs both ways and most of the traffic is in the other direction.

I have seen more unbridled arrogance and snobbery on this board than I have seen anywhere on the internet, and I post on forums dedicated to combative sports where egos abound.

 

[Roboramma]

2)micro evolution or the evolving of kinds...ok dogs for example...I believe that a black lab and a poodle have a common ancestor...it was a dog, not a duck or a elm tree, but a dog! as far as I know no dog has ever givin birth to a mouse...Keep in mind that I am not trying to be ignorant, and my examples may not satisfy you, but I do not beleive in evolution.

Not to get too involved in this discussion, but I think Dr Adequate's response to this sort of thing was probably the best I've ever seen:

Strange News From the Monkey House

A little peice for those who don't follow links:

Giraffes in the distance were peacefully looming;
the sloths took it easy; the flowers were blooming;
the monkeys were eating bananas or "grooming",
and that's when the trouble began:
for the witnesses swear (there's a dozen at least)
they saw one of the monkeys break off from the feast,
and a puzzled expression came over the beast ---
and then it turned into a man.

The press and the media grew very excited;
they quoted the monkey (it said "I'm delighted",
then sniffed at the mike and attempted to bite it)
but public reaction was mixed.
The scientists cried in despair and vexation
"We're baffled completely; for your information
all theory and practice forbids a saltation
without a between and betwixt."

But even for the creationists here, click the link, read the whole poem, it's good.

 

[Beleth]

Not as familiar with the town as with the Latin. Moderately familiar with Texans, though. Familiar enough to know that Austin is about the only town I'd fit in in.

I was raised in Chicago, and now live in Silicon Valley. (My previous Location: tag was "Sylvia Browne's back yard".)

 

[RationalReverend]

Not as familiar with the town as with the Latin. Moderately familiar with Texans, though. Familiar enough to know that Austin is about the only town I'd fit in in.

I was raised in Chicago, and now live in Silicon Valley. (My previous Location: tag was "Sylvia Browne's back yard".)

Yes, you would fit in quite nicely *snicker*

lol

 

[Zep]

If you think Christians aren't aware of such problems you are sorely mistaken. Just a week and a half ago while we were on break in class my Koine Greek professor discussed this very thing with us. And I attend a very conservative Baptist college. (I mean conservative in the theological sense of course)

I was not arguing at all that such was the case. It was actually a senior clergyman (our bishop, actually) who was also my English master in my final year of school (of 30+ years ago!) who outlined this issue to me. Since many societal ills can be sheeted home firmly to this perpetual mass ignorance, and history shows that most religions encourage it for a variety of reasons, I feel it is beholden on the churches to seek solutions.

And it is to their credit that some of the leading academic schools today are also founded on religious principles that espouse a solid study of modern science, and pass out students who can contribute greatly to the common weal. Conversely, it is to their eternal discredit that some other religious schools disdain science to their pupils as "evil" and "heretical", and resort to lies and mis-statements about the subject.

We are not blind to ignorance, but we do not discredit people simply because they are ignorant. There is no crime in a simple faith, and I will not be that snobby college prick that rains of some uneducated persons parade for absolutely no real reason.

This is a plain strawman argument. You are attributing to me things I did not say or even indicated, and then tearing into them.

The AIG people are not stupid or ignorant, they offer alternatives to the vitriol Christians face in atheists everywhere and as long as you exist they will exist.

Oh dear. We were off to a flying positive start here, too. And then this happened...

Well, let me be VERY clear. The few dozen people who constitute AiG are either blindly ignorant, or wilfully ignorant. Their motives are not clear, and they are not simon pure as they would like people to believe. However I suggest you do a little research on them yourself - take a look at the revealing viewpoints of real scientists when they tried to interact with AiG. If it wasn't so serious, it would be a scream...

Are you sure you wouldn't like to change your mind before we delve any deeper?

 

[Hokulele]

The second account is merely a more detailed recounting of a section of the simpler first story. It is a common Near Eastern story telling technique found in other Near Eastern Epics. Here is a citation from a source I used in a paper on Genesis. “Comparative studies show that the telling of human origins in doublet is a feature observed in Sumerian and Babylonian stories. In Enki and Ninmah (2000 BC) the first account of human life is a general one, with creation by nipping off clay, and the second covers the same ground in more detail. Babylonian Atrahasis has the first creation account from the remains of the slain deity mixed with clay, and the second elaborates, showing that humans were first created in seven pairs by clipping off clay. In both cases the former is general and the second is specific.” Kenneth Matthews. 1996. Genesis 1-11:26 Broadman and Holman Publishers pg29

Thanks. Actually, I did know this, hence the smiley at the end of my post.

 

[Beleth]

Yes, you would fit in quite nicely *snicker* lol

Oh, grow up.

 

[SezMe]

I have seen more unbridled arrogance and snobbery on this board than I have seen anywhere on the internet, and I post on forums dedicated to combative sports where egos abound.

The internet is but a very small segment of Real Life. And this board is a very small segment of the internet.

Perhaps you should get out more?

 

[SimonD]

What hogwash, the ratio in this thread of atheist to Christians must be 20:1, complaining about people getting overwhelmed is ridiculous.

I was not complaining about anything. JF simply did not answer the question. Thank-you for backing my claim, as instead of answering the question, you have attacked me

Especially when one must deal with an onslaught of the same old questions asked 10 different ways. Sometimes responding to atheist arguments is a mind-numbingly boring affair because you have addressed the same argument time and again..

When why would you come to a skeptics website? Seems pretty silly to complain that people will be asking these questions, on such a site. I never asked you to come here, but if you are going to express your religious views on skeptics website, you had better be prepared to defend them

It also difficult to motivate oneself when it is clear the majority of people are interested only in winning arguments, and not in talking or having our faiths dialog..

I am quite happy to have a discussion with anyone. But to have a discussion, you have to answer the questions that are asked. Not attack or ignore people when they ask them

Do me a favor go to a Christian Philosophy forum and start a discussion proclaiming the utter lack of veracity to the Christian claim and see what happens.

No thanks, I had enough religious brain washing when I was a child. I am old enough to work things out myself. I like to think for myself. I don't like being told what to think

 

[SimonD]

The Bible has a multitude of witnesses, I would not call their minor variations contradictions (dun dun dunnnnnnn). And frankly, most discrepancies are easily explained through copying errors. However, if you want to view the difference in numbers of rooster crows as evidence of contradiction, then go ahead, that is your prerogative.

Okay, well perhaps you can answer this contradiction for me.

Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

Was he hanged or gutted? I fail to see how different witness could have such different stories. Perhaps one is wrong?

 

[Beleth]

I have seen more unbridled arrogance and snobbery on this board than I have seen anywhere on the internet, and I post on forums dedicated to combative sports where egos abound.

Considering your second-ever post on this forum assumed that someone was too stupid to use Google, I'd say you found only what you brought here yourself.

 

[RationalReverend]

Considering your second-ever post on this forum assumed that someone was too stupid to use Google, I'd say you found only what you brought here yourself.

Well now isn't that interesting, you went back through my posts. How sweet, I knew you had a crush on me, but I didn't know it was that bad. I think it is clear in that post that I was trying to be helpful to a random stranger, not make fun of them. All they had to do to find what they were looking for was google. I have in fact come across older people who could work a forum but were not familiar with search engines. It happens, but glad to know you are checking up on me snookums.

 

[RationalReverend]

Okay, well perhaps you can answer this contradiction for me.

Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

Was he hanged or gutted? I fail to see how different witness could have such different stories. Perhaps one is wrong?

the rope broke...

 

[RationalReverend]

The internet is but a very small segment of Real Life. And this board is a very small segment of the internet.

Perhaps you should get out more?

If only it were just the JREF forums, too bad it has happened countless times in person. The saddest part is the assumption that I am mentally deficient. Oh well. Let me be clear that I am not somehow holding every individual atheist responsible for the encounters I've had. That is grossly unfair, and I don't assume an atheist is going to be an arrogant jerk, but rather form that open only after he/she/it has proven it so.

 

[SimonD]

the rope broke...

You are just guessing. Please quote the passage from the Bible that says the rope broke.

 

[RationalReverend]

You are just guessing. Please quote the passage from the Bible that says the rope broke.

there of course is none, and I could go through how such a theory makes sense given certain details of the hanging, but I fear it would be wasted on you

 

[Tony]

there of course is none, and I could go through how such a theory makes sense given certain details of the hanging

Your "theory" is irrelevant. You correctly state that there is no verse that says the rope broke. An honest person and true christian would recognize this and concede this error. However, you are not a real christian, you give the Bible, not Jesus, primacy. The Bible is your idol. Because of that, you are forced to make ***** up in the false hope of making your absurd holy book internally consistent. If your god exists, he sees your BS and your heresy clearly. You're fooling no-one but yourself and your fellow deluded christ-bots.

 

[SimonD]

there of course is none, and I could go through how such a theory makes sense given certain details of the hanging, but I fear it would be wasted on you

Being rude again RR. Thats real christain of you. I would like a apology for this.

Thanks Tony.

 

[Blutarsky]

Okay, well perhaps you can answer this contradiction for me.

Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

Was he hanged or gutted? I fail to see how different witness could have such different stories. Perhaps one is wrong?

Is this one really that hard? He was hanged. When you die, after a few days you blow up like a balloon. If the person was left to hang for long enough their bowls could most certainly gush out when they hit the ground like the Acts verse says it did...even if he wasn't cut down or the rope broke, his guts could still breach just because of the internal pressure.

Matthew says he was hanged, Acts appears to be discussing the aftermath...nowhere in the Acts verse does it say he wasn't hanged or that the proximate cause of death was disembowlment.

Lastly, while Matthew's account may well have been first hand knowledge as asserted, the reference in Acts is not attributable to a specific source and is likely a reprisal of the story.