Questions for Christians

[ehbowen]

Questions for Christians:

Question 1:
If you could go back in time to be a passive spectator of the actual crucifixion of Jesus before returning to the present time, would you do it?

Sure. Absolutely.

Question 2:
If you could go back in time to rescue Jesus from being crucified and get him to a safe location before returning to the present time, would you do it knowing that the world to which you return would be one in which Jesus never died for anyone's sins because he was rescued from crucifixion?

Sure. Absolutely. For a couple of reasons:

Travel backward through time is, IMO, only possible by the creation of a new "timeline," an alternate reality, a new branch in the space-time continuum. It is (again IMO) not necessary that events proceed exactly as they did in the original, foundational timeline. If they do, then the timelines will be parallel and, except with careful scrutiny, indistinguishable from each other. But there is no reason why events cannot diverge.

If, for some reason, it is necessary that events follow the same path, God the Father is more than capable of taking steps to insure that that happens. The end result is his responsibility, after all. By permitting me to be in that time and place with the ability to change events [and assuming Jesus is receptive to being rescued--I just can't quite picture knocking him on the head and saying, "You're coming with me whether you like it or not"] it would appear that God is implicitly giving permission to intervene.

In regards to the sacrifice for salvation--while rescuing Jesus would create a new timeline in which Jesus did not die, it still would not alter the fact that in the original timeline, which is foundational to our own, that Jesus did die and pay the penalty for sins--which sacrifice, IMO, extends to cover all of the new timelines which will ever be created from that foundational sequence of events. So even though there might be a sequence of events in which Jesus did not die--maybe even a sequence of events in which nobody had ever even heard of Jesus--the foundational sacrifice still extends into all these new branches of time.

I think, when all is said and done, that we will all be surprised at what went into that sequence of events that we now know as the crucifixion and resurrection. I think that there may very well have been an original timeline in which Jesus didn't die at all, but ascended to the throne of David and was acclaimed as Messiah and King. And that it was from a point in the future of that alternate reality that Satan, looking back through time for a way of escape, seized upon that point as the crucial one that might offer him a way out. I suspect that he reached back repeatedly through time, heaping indignity after indignity upon Jesus, saying in so many words, "If I do this I can break him!" But Jesus bore every indignity that Satan could heap upon him without breaking. Satan had lost.

 

[ehbowen]

I would not go back in time under any circumstance. In my opinion humans can not possibly go back in time. If I had supernatural aid, I would reject that as being demonic in nature. It is my belief that God would never offer a human the possibility of going back in time.

-Elliot

I gotta disagree with you on that one, Elliot. I think that not only can it happen and will it happen, but that (from a point which is well into our own future), it is happening.

We don't, in general, notice those signs now because there is a specific sequence of events which has to occur between this point in time and that future point in time at which God begins to permit that activity. For us to see signs of intervention from the future to the present, that intervention must be of such a limited nature that it almost exactly parallels the foundational events of this timeline. Where such a limited intervention exists, God may "tweak" the flow to allow you to perceive the alternate stream of events. Otherwise, your consciousness will simply continue to follow the original, foundational sequence of events.

 

[elliotfc]

Elliot,

I think that the Jewish God was about blood sacrifices for appeasement, debt payment, and worship. I also thought the term lamb of God descended form the Abraham and Isaac story where Isaac was spared his father's knife because of the lamb that appeared caught in a bush nearby. Abraham had told Isaac God will provide the sacrifice. Abraham, the first Jew, had every intentention to slay his own son in ritualistic appeasement and in perfect faith, we believe, that God had the power to raise Isaac from the dead. That is what a loving God would do after all to any Dad murdering his son at God's request.

You are right, but I think we are looking at this from two different perspectives (now there's an obvious thing to say).

Just by being human, Jesus assumed death. There is the sacrifice. Jesus died, could have died any of a million ways, but he had to die. That is the sacrifice. An entity that does not have to die, but chooses a life that will end up in death (forget the actual method for a second) has made a sacrifice. Can we agree on that?

It wasn't a lamb in the Akedah story but a ram. Not sure if the rhyme extends to non-English languages.

So yes, the sacrifice was provided. Just by being born, Jesus chose to die. That is the sacrifice.

The Jesus story has Jesus in all 3 roles. A Jewish son, the slaughtered lamb, and God with the power to raise him up. As a sacrifice to God he was lifted up to Heaven.

Early Christians, at least, would have recognized the "sacrifice" as an extension of the required traditions.

Am I way off base here?

No, you're bang on. The relationships between all this are at the very least fortuitous.

What is missing is the Christian belief (I think most Christians would agree) that Satan helped to inspire the brutal death of Jesus, out of spite/revenge/despair. This was the one way Satan could directly attack and cause humiliation and pain to God.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Re: Re: Questions for Christians

I gotta disagree with you on that one, Elliot. I think that not only can it happen and will it happen, but that (from a point which is well into our own future), it is happening.

We don't, in general, notice those signs now because there is a specific sequence of events which has to occur between this point in time and that future point in time at which God begins to permit that activity. For us to see signs of intervention from the future to the present, that intervention must be of such a limited nature that it almost exactly parallels the foundational events of this timeline. Where such a limited intervention exists, God may "tweak" the flow to allow you to perceive the alternate stream of events. Otherwise, your consciousness will simply continue to follow the original, foundational sequence of events.

Eric do you think that it has ever happened? If so, why?

-Elliot

 

[bignickel]

How about you go back in time, rescue Jesus, bring him back to the present.

He is very angry.

"Why are you angry, Jesus? I saved your life."

"Idiot! Did you not read the Scriptures? I'm the Messiah! After being executed, I rise from the dead, become King of Israel, conquer Rome, and then the World! I was to establish a Kingdom of Heaven on Earth! You've ruined everything!"

"I don't understand. The Gospels said you died and came back to life."

"Oh really? Then what am I doing here talking to you? I obviously DIDN'T die and get resurrected."

"Then why did they write that you did?"

"Because they all knew the PLAN, numbskull! They were obviously very confused, and wrote about what was supposed to happen. What's this in this passage? I come back, talk a bit, and then rise up to heaven? What kind of sense does that make? I'm supposed to kick ass and take names, not take my ball and go home!"

"Oh, huh..."

"Everything that has happened in the last 2000 years has been your fault! You've ruined everything!"

"I thought God was omnipotent! Why'd you let me take you?"

"Hello!? I'm the Son of Man, not the Son of God. Why don't people pay more attention when they read...?"

 

[c4ts]

I'd show up right after the crucifixion, take Jesus with me in the time machine, and tell everybody that I'm God taking Jesus to heaven. After that, it's back to the modern era to get him to a hospital, and once he recovers, take him back to the time machine. Then I'd show up in the Vatican with Jesus in the year 1000 and announce that the world is going to end, wait five minutes, and laugh my ass off.

 

[MLynn]

Yeah...Judas - the man who made our salvation possible!


I think he´s underappreciated...

Actually, I think Judas could have done great things if he had not killed himself. He could have lived and asked God for forgiveness. Peter had betrayed Jesus, too; but, he asked for forgiveness and it was freely given, allowing Peter to be the best he could be. At one point, both Judas and Peter were equally dismal as followers of Jesus (my opinion).