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Questions about time

But doubtless your next will post will say it doesn't matter what Einstein said.
It is without a shadow of a doubt true that it does not matter what Einstein said. The laws of physics are the laws of physics regardless of what Einstein said the laws of physics are. What matters is whether the theories Einstein developed are accurate and whether or not they are applied appropriately.

And you will hide your lack of understanding behind maths like some religious groupie hides behind Latin because he wants to believe in woo.
I'm sorry, you're the one claiming only you and possibly a select few others understand the TRUE words of Einstein, it is you who rubbishing the value of mathematics and the logic contained therein and yet it is you accusing others of acting with religious fervour. I find this quite amusing.
 
I give you the maths and the analogy and the understanding for SR and the time dilation due to relative motion, and now you're changing the goalposts to GR? What's the matter with you? Don't you want to understand? Would you rather cling to woo like time travel? Besides, if you want to understand GR, you've got to read what Einstein said about the motion of light:

1911: If we call the velocity of light at the origin of co-ordinates cₒ, then the velocity of light c at a place with the gravitation potential Φ will be given by the relation c = cₒ(1 + Φ/c²)
1912 : On the other hand I am of the view that the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light can be maintained only insofar as one restricts oneself to spatio-temporal regions of constant gravitational potential.
1913: I arrived at the result that the velocity of light is not to be regarded as independent of the gravitational potential. Thus the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light is incompatible with the equivalence hypothesis.
1915: the writer of these lines is of the opinion that the theory of relativity is still in need of generalization, in the sense that the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light is to be abandoned.


Note that he said all this in German, and he didn't use the word velocity. The word he used was geschwindigkeit. That's speed. And c is a speed, not a velocity. The principle was the constant speed of light, not the vector-quantity. It isn't time that goes slower in a gravitational field, it's light. Einstein spelled it out. But doubtless your next will post will say it doesn't matter what Einstein said. And you will hide your lack of understanding behind maths like some religious groupie hides behind Latin because he wants to believe in woo.
How can you post that without being embarrassed? All those quotes are before GR! You are ignoring the reasoning behind GR and the final conclusion of Einstein after considering the things that you keep rambling about. He abandoned the idea for a reason. If you would bother to learn his physics, you too would see why.
 
I'm not in the least embarrassed. Those Einstein quotes are from the period when he was developing general relativity. And then in 1915 on page 150 of Doc 30, within The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity he said "the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo must be modified." He reiterated it in section 22 of the 1916 book Relativity: The Special and General Theory which was translated into English in 1920:

Einstein said:
In the second place our result shows that, according to the general theory of relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of relativity and to which we have already frequently referred, cannot claim any unlimited validity. A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the velocity of propagation of light varies with position. Now we might think that as a consequence of this, the special theory of relativity and with it the whole theory of relativity would be laid in the dust. But in reality this is not the case. We can only conclude that the special theory of relativity cannot claim an unlimited domain of validity; its results hold only so long as we are able to disregard the influences of gravitational fields on the phenomena (e.g. of light).

People see the word velocity in the translations and think vector quantity, and for some weird reason they miss the way he refers to c, which is most definitely a speed. It's crushingly obvious he's talking about speed because he’s repeatedly referring to “the principle” or "one of the two fundamental assumptions". He was talking about the special relativity postulate, which is the constant speed of light. And it's even more obvious if you go back to the original German. What he actually said was "die Ausbreitungs-geschwindigkeit des Lichtes mit dem Orte variiert." It translates into the speed of light varies with the location. (LOL, some smart-alec has changed google translate to replace location with type. Try translating Orte on its own or use another translation facility). He said the speed varies with position and causes the curvilinear motion.

Again, it isn't time that goes slower in a gravitational field, it's light.
 
Can you show us where in the actual physics that Einstein uses a scalar quantity rather than a vector quantity?
 
It is without a shadow of a doubt true that it does not matter what Einstein said...
How on earth can you dismiss Einstein just like that? We're talking about relativity and time here, it matters. What's the alternative, ignore him and lap up some moonshine about time machines instead? FFS Tubby, what kind of cargo-cult world do you live in? Don't bother answering that, nobody's going to listen to your Einstein was wrong tosh anyway.
 
How on earth can you dismiss Einstein just like that?
I'm not dismissing Einstein. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't really matter what exact prose he used when. It only matters whether his theories are accurate or not and that we apply them correctly. I would have thought this should be obvious to anyone with an interest in quantitative physics.

We're talking about relativity and time here, it matters.
What matters is whether his theories are accurate or not (hint: they are).

What's the alternative, ignore him and lap up some moonshine about time machines instead?
Err, no. Like I said: "The laws of physics are the laws of physics regardless of what Einstein said the laws of physics are. What matters is whether the theories Einstein developed are accurate and whether or not they are applied appropriately." The "alternative" is to determine how accurately Einstein's theories are through applied physics. Its much more productive to the advancement of science than what somebody said in a popular science/philosophy book about what somebody else said about the work of Einstein. Thankfully, physicists are continually trying to test the work of Einstein. Science funding and resources are given over to tests of relativity. This is good in my book.

FFS Tubby, what kind of cargo-cult world do you live in?
It constitutes a cargo-cult world to suggest that the accuracy of Einstein's theories, as tested by precision equipment at the cutting-edge of technological development, is more important to the advancement of science than the exact prose Einstein used on a given date in a specific communication? Are you serious?

Don't bother answering that, nobody's going to listen to your Einstein was wrong tosh anyway.
So now you have to make something up out of thin air. I have never once said that Einstein was wrong on relativity. In fact, I haven't even hinted at such a thing. This is a fabrication entirely of your own making.
If you think otherwise, quote me.
 
How can you post that without being embarrassed?
Shamelessly. With my highlighting:

I'm not in the least embarrassed.

...snip...

People see the word velocity in the translations and think vector quantity, and for some weird reason they miss the way he refers to c, which is most definitely a speed. It's crushingly obvious he's talking about speed because he’s repeatedly referring to “the principle” or "one of the two fundamental assumptions". He was talking about the special relativity postulate, which is the constant speed of light. And it's even more obvious if you go back to the original German. What he actually said was "die Ausbreitungs-geschwindigkeit des Lichtes mit dem Orte variiert." It translates into the speed of light varies with the location. (LOL, some smart-alec has changed google translate to replace location with type. Try translating Orte on its own or use another translation facility). He said the speed varies with position and causes the curvilinear motion.
That is Farsight's interpretation, but Farsight doesn't really understand what Einstein was saying because Farsight got lost at Einstein's equation (3).

Compare the highlighted German above with Einstein's discussion of this in Die Grundlagen der allgemeinen Relativitätstheorie, in the last paragraph of §2:

Albert Einstein said:
Aus diesen Erwägungen sieht man, daß die Durchführung der allgemeinen Relativitätstheorie zugleich zu einer Theorie der Gravitation führen muß; denn man kann ein Gravitationsfeld durch bloße Änderung des Koordinatensystems „erzeugen“. Ebenso sieht man unmittelbar, daß das Prinzip von der Konstanz der Vakuum-Lichtgeschwindigkeit eine Modifikation erfahren muß. Denn man erkennt leicht, daß die Bahn eines Lichtstrahles in bezug auf K′ im allgemeinen eine krumme sein muß, wenn sich das Licht in bezug auf K geradlinig und mit bestimmter, konstanter Geschwindigkeit fortpflanzt.


Here's how that paragraph was translated in the definitive collection of Einstein's papers:

Albert Einstein (translated into English) said:
It will be seen from these reflexions that in pursuing the general theory of relativity we shall be led to a theory of gravitation, since we are able to "produce" a gravitational field merely by changing the system of co-ordinates. It will also be obvious that the principle of the constancy of light in vacuo must be modified, since we easily recognize that the path of a ray of light with respect to K′ must in general be curvilinear, if with respect to K light is propagated in a straight line with a definite constant velocity.
Note well that Einstein is discussing a ray of light in vacuo that "is propagated in a straight line with a definite constant velocity" in coordinate system K but is curvilinear in coordinate system K′. In other words, Einstein is discussing an observer-dependent effect.

When Farsight tells us the effect we're discussing is a property of spacetime, not an artifact of how spacetime is interpreted by different observers using different coordinate systems, Farsight is arguing with Einstein.

Farsight's been arguing with Einstein a lot. Farsight has also been denying the first sentence of Einstein's paragraph, in which Einstein says gravitational fields are observer-dependent and can be produced by a suitable choice of coordinate system even in flat spacetime. Farsight continued to deny those words of Einstein even after a simple concrete example was described in ample mathematical detail:


Can you show us where in the actual physics that Einstein uses a scalar quantity rather than a vector quantity?
No, Farsight got lost at Einstein's equation (3), so 99% of Einstein's physics is incomprehensible to Farsight. When the physics is presented in detail, as in the "Farsight versus Einstein" links above, Farsight dances the crackpot's polka: denial, scorn, condescension, ignorance, dishonesty, and projection. Like this:

How on earth can you dismiss Einstein just like that? We're talking about relativity and time here, it matters. What's the alternative, ignore him and lap up some moonshine about time machines instead? FFS Tubby, what kind of cargo-cult world do you live in? Don't bother answering that, nobody's going to listen to your Einstein was wrong tosh anyway.

Get lost, you got caught with your pants down when I quoted the later material, you're patently dishonest.
 
Talking about dishonest...

Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
It is without a shadow of a doubt true that it does not matter what Einstein said...

Quoting a selected part of a text obviously meant to obscure what Tubbythin meant...

It is without a shadow of a doubt true that it does not matter what Einstein said. The laws of physics are the laws of physics regardless of what Einstein said the laws of physics are. What matters is whether the theories Einstein developed are accurate and whether or not they are applied appropriately.

Really obvious what he meant... Farsight just prefers to answer questions that he can make into an ad hominem attack or a vague generalization.

1. Why can't you ever answer Kwalish Kid's specific questions on the physics of the matter?

So far you have yet to answer one of them in a way that would be considered real physics. You just keep quoting Einstein and Gödel in general terms without showing any understanding of actual physics.

2. Why are you here?

So far, you have just about zero credibility. The obvious route for someone who claims that he can easily prove that the top physicists of this day are completely wrong, would be to publish this proof and gain fame and fortune for his brilliant analysis.

All you do is come on public forums and insults everyone who disagrees with you.

For me, you have less than zero credibility. You show every characteristic of a crackpot, and none of a scientist.



Edited to add...

WD Clinger presented this better than I did... but I didn't notice until I posted.
 
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