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Questions about Revelations

psy kick said:
I know it sounds implausible, but the bible says God will send them a strong delusion and they will believe the lie. I forget where, but its there.
So, if left behind, you will want all christians dead. I know it sounds odd, but, there it is.
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Psy kick, I think you need to start reading Fred Clarke's Left Behind Archives (scroll back to the beginning if you've not read him before).
He's a Christian pastor and he uses the Left Behind books to deconstruct the whole Rapture idea. If you're a Christian, you'll find plenty of good theological meat there.
 
If her purpose was to convert, I find it weird that she’d ask you to read Revelations. Why that book?

Sure, it has a compelling and somehow timelessly impending threat to it, but so much of it is esoteric and bizarre and the Jesus in it is not the familiar, relatable human Jesus (as noted by ruach1). In a way it seems like one of the less effective choices, if conversion was the purpose.

I wonder what would be the best. Matthew, or John maybe?
 
At one time before the third century, there were several different books of Revelation used by different Early Christian Churches. The Revelation of John was just one of many. After the Council of Nicea (which determined what books were to be included in the Christian Bible), the bishops narrowed the field to two books - The Revelation of John and The Revelation of Peter. The voting was very close, but John's Revelation won.

In my experience, 99% of all Christians have no idea as to how their Holy book came into being, nor do they care; it's God's Book isn't it, the Preacher says so. The remaining 1% are church leaders that want to keep their nice jobs; or people that are begining to think/educate themselves and are on the way out of the church.

The books that were not chosen after the Council of Nicea, were then considered heretical. All remaining books used by the different Early Christian Churches were banned and destroyed.

Yes, I can see God's work in the entire process! The Preacher told me so!
 
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psy kick said:
I know it sounds implausible, but the bible says God will send them a strong delusion and they will believe the lie. I forget where, but its there.
So, if left behind, you will want all christians dead. I know it sounds odd, but, there it is.
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You may be referring to this:

John of Patmos; said:
3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"

5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
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It sounds pretty clear to me that all the Christians are not gone. I suppose you can take the "Left Behind" approach and say that these are Christians who converted after the rapture. So I guess these people would have to convert after the rapture but before the Beast starts his world conquering campaign.

In the interest of full disclosure, it seems, very, very clear to me that this passage is actually referring to Caesar Augustus. In 90 AD the Roman Empire was thought to be the entire world, and worshipping Augustus was an important part of civic life. This was not a big deal for polytheists, but it was a problem for Christians.
 
There is also a verse (which I hope someone can locate) which says God will send them a strong delusion so they will believe the lie. So, if God hadn't, or wouldn't do that, most people would see through this charlatan.
 
Hmm...I find lots of verses that say generally the same things about a powerful king being destroyed, but nothing really like that. I thought is sounded kind of Daniel-esque because of it's "us and them" attitude, but I couldn't find any thing explicit there either.

Let me know if you find it, psy kick.
 
Here we are...

The Apostle Paul; said:
2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
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Hmmm....sounds almost like predestination to me, but we won't go there.
 
There is also a verse (which I hope someone can locate) which says God will send them a strong delusion so they will believe the lie. So, if God hadn't, or wouldn't do that, most people would see through this charlatan.
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Why does God send a delusion so people will believe a lie? I thought he was the good guy. I thought he was for truth. He doesn't seem to want to give people a chance does he. Doesn't seem fair does it.

Shouldn't it be Satan who sends the delusion? He's the bad guy, remember.
But then we would have the problem of " why God, who is more powerful, did not stop Satan".

I find it amusing that these "persecuted" Christians have an endless supply of tax-free money. They build multi-million dollar churches everywhere. They operate their own schools, where they indoctrinate young minds, and they want to do the same for all schools in the US. They practically own the US government.

Yes, I feel bad for the poor persecuted Christians.
 
From what I understand, and I am no expert, God sends the delusion because He has given people a lot of grace and chances. After a certain point, its like, "Okay, you didn't want me, now you will accept someone else."
 
You've got to think in fundy-mode for this though. You and I use the way the real world works to decide how credible the bible is, but to the fundy the credibility of the bible is simply not at issue. He (or she) uses the bible to decide how the real world works. It may be a million to one chance that the people of the world are going to unite under one world government, but it's literally impossible that the bible is wrong. So the million to one shot is the way to bet. Simple, see?
 
Here's how I read that passage:

Most Romans think we are nuts when we tell them about the wonderful things we see and do when we are filled with the Holy Spirit. Those Romans can't feel the Spirit because they are wicked. If deep down inside they wanted to be good, they would agree with us. Because of their wicked, Godless minds, they actually go so far as to think the Roman gods are real and do real things when it's obvious that the Roman religion is based on ignorance and superstition.

I think if you questioned Paul on this he would say that it's not so much that at some future date God is going to put his foot down and toy with the non-Christians, but an explanation of why so many Romans didn't agree with him at that very moment. He uses the future tense because he's warning that things are going to get worse.

Looking at earlychristianwritings.com I see that many scholars think that this letter is not authentic to Paul precisely because of this passage. It is a bogus post hoc prediction and explanation of the Christian persection and the reasons for the delay in the second coming.

This is pretty interesting in itself, and not something I knew about. Thanks for pointing it out psy kick...I will re-read the epistle when I get a chance.
 
Seismosaurus, sadly I agree with your analysis of "fundy mode".

ChristineR, I also agree with you in that The New Testament was written for the Roman audience then, not some future generation.

It's been a few years sinse I read much about Biblical History, but I still remember some detail. There was a time when I was researching it a great deal.

For some interesting reading, I suggest that you read about the relationship between Paul and James(the brother of Jesus). James was the leader of the Early Christian Church after Jesus died. Seems James didn't buy Paul's story about having a vision of Jesus and being sent on a mission by Jesus. Paul's message was so different from the message that Jesus actually taught, that James found it impossible to accept it. James even confronted Paul by telling him that never knew Jesus in person, and Paul's message was not Jesus's message.

So Paul taught his version of Jesus seperate from the true followers of Jesus in Jerusalem, that were led by James.

After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, most of Jesus's followers were killed and Paul's message became the Christian message.

The few true followers of Jesus that were left, called themslves "The Nazarenes". They were all vegetarians, as was James. They had their own holy book called The Book of the Nazarene.

After the Pauline version of Christianity became the official Roman religion, the Nazarenes were hunted down and their books destroyed. That was the end of Jesus's true church.
 
I read Revelations a long time ago and have browsed it several times since, and I always thought it had more in common with "Kubla Khan" that Coleridge wrote in an opium haze than it did with any of the other books of the bible. But since the request has been made, I'm going through it again and asking a few questions about the really odd parts.
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Questions about Revelations: (New International Version)

Rev 1:9 Of the seven churches, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea, which has the best Quidditch team?

Rev1:16-18 How does Jesus manage to talk with sword coming out of his mouth?

Rev 2:6 Who are the Nicolaitans, and what have they ever done to Jesus to make him hate them?

Rev 2:19-23 When did Jesus change his attitude towards adulteresses to hateful wrath, threatening to kill not only Jezebel, but also her presumably innocent children?

Rev 3:4 What has Jesus got against incontinent people?

Rev 3:15-16 Does Jesus really prefer fanatics, or does he just have a sensitive filling in his tooth?

Rev 4:3 How can a rainbow resemble an emerald? In shape? In color? What about it makes it recognizable as a rainbow?

Rev 4:8 How did the eye-covered creatures manage to keep grit out of the eyes on their butts when they sat down? Was it a bitch finding contact lenses?

Rev 5:8 What use has an eye-covered ox got for a harp? How would he play it?

Rev 6:6 The end of the world is impending, and this guy wants to talk shop??!!
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I'll have more later, but I have work to do now.
 
psy kick
I know it sounds implausible, but the bible says God will send them a strong delusion and they will believe the lie. I forget where, but its there.
So, if left behind, you will want all christians dead. I know it sounds odd, but, there it is.
Click to expand...
The bible also says that the earth is flat. I know it sounds implausible and has actually been observed to be a slightly flattened spheroid, but its there.

From what I understand, and I am no expert, God sends the delusion because He has given people a lot of grace and chances. After a certain point, its like, "Okay, you didn't want me, now you will accept someone else."
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You just removed ‘all loving’ and ‘mercy’ from god. Or do you thing these attributes have a time limit?

Ossai
 
God is a judge. He is merciful, but all must have justice.
Its like a judge keeps giving probation to a person, and they keep doing wrong. After a time, enough is enough and the person must be given up to judgment.
 
psy kick said:
God is a judge. He is merciful, but all must have justice.
Its like a judge keeps giving probation to a person, and they keep doing wrong. After a time, enough is enough and the person must be given up to judgment.
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What if that wrong is no more than not accepting the judge.
 
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