Questions about Diabetes?

[Kumar]

I re-write/remind my questions for this topic:-


Q1. Is it possible that diabetic medications for increase in insulin levels as oral medicines, injected insulin etc., can cause/result persistant increase in blood sugar levels under certain conditions eg. Pre-diabetic stages, Insulin Resistance etc.?

Q2. Is there any relation between common salt & blood sugar? Can salt or salty fried snacks taken in excess quantity or accumulated salt can raise blood sugar levels, substancially? Salt & sugar(some other may be as Mg) both seems to be related to water attracting & retaining properties. It has been noted that taking excess salt/salty snacks in excess raises BS levels after 3/6 days (not instantly) & reversed on reducing salt intake. How it can happen?

Q3: How imbalances in digestive pHs & internal pHs can be related to imbalances in BG(bloood gulucose) levels?

Q4: How, weight gain, stay constant, & loose can be linked to various diabetes conditions?

Q5: How daily fluctuations (non-persisting high) & persisting high for long but studden fall, in BG levels can be linked to diabetic conditions & medications?

Q6: Which minerals & trace elements are related to diabetes & its complications?

We discussed first two a bit but I want more accurate & dynamic thoughts on those first two concepts. So pls contribute.

 

[Kumar]

Another important task of the Na-K pump is to provide a Na gradient which is used by certain carrier processes. In the gut, for example, sodium is transported out of the resorbing cell on the blood side via the Na-K pump, while on the resorbing side, the Na-Glucose co-transporter uses the created Na gradient as a source of energy to import both Na and Glucose, which is far more efficient than simple diffusion. Similar processes are located in the renal tubular system.
http://www.free-definition.com/NaKATPase.html

TT,Others,

Does it not indicate NaCl relation with BG?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Questions about Diabetes?

I re-write/remind my questions for this topic:-

Translation: I dind't like the first answers I got, so I'll restate them hoping to get a different answer .


Q1. Is it possible that diabetic medications for increase in insulin levels as oral medicines, injected insulin etc., can cause/result persistant increase in blood sugar levels under certain conditions eg. Pre-diabetic stages, Insulin Resistance etc.?

No. The purpose of diabetic medications are to lower BG. Do you think they would be used if they increased it? Do you think doctors are insane?

Q2. Is there any relation between common salt & blood sugar?

No. Low salt intake is recommended for dietary reasons, it has no direct connection to BG.

Can salt or salty fried snacks taken in excess quantity or accumulated salt can raise blood sugar levels, substancially?

Snacks contain a lot of fat, mostly over 50%. A high intake of fat can increase BG. It is not the salt.

Salt & sugar(some other may be as Mg) both seems to be related to water attracting & retaining properties.

Irrelevant.

It has been noted that taking excess salt/salty snacks in excess raises BS levels after 3/6 days (not instantly) & reversed on reducing salt intake. How it can happen?

Fat. Salt is metabolized very quickly, not in 3-6 days. It is the fat.

Q3: How imbalances in digestive pHs

Not directly, but antiacids are not recommended for diabetics, I do not remember exactly why.

& internal pHs can be related to imbalances in BG(bloood gulucose) levels?

Blood pH? Blood pH is releated to respiratory conditions.

Q4: How, weight gain, stay constant, & loose can be linked to various diabetes conditions?

A high body fat level increases insulin resistance.

Q5: How daily fluctuations (non-persisting high) & persisting high for long but studden fall, in BG levels can be linked to diabetic conditions & medications?

Too complex for simple answer, but of course medication designed to regulate BG will influence BG, what did you think?

Q6: Which minerals & trace elements are related to diabetes & its complications?

None.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Questions about Diabetes?

No. The purpose of diabetic medications are to lower BG. Do you think they would be used if they increased it? Do you think doctors are insane?

Food is good for us, but in digestion, extra food can be harmful. Anyway, what do you say, what can cause insulin resistance?

No. Low salt intake is recommended for dietary reasons, it has no direct connection to BG.

Then, what is the meaning of this:-

"Another important task of the Na-K pump is to provide a Na gradient which is used by certain carrier processes. In the gut, for example, sodium is transported out of the resorbing cell on the blood side via the Na-K pump, while on the resorbing side, the Na-Glucose co-transporter uses the created Na gradient as a source of energy to import both Na and Glucose, which is far more efficient than simple diffusion. Similar processes are located in the renal tubular system.
http://www.free-definition.com/NaKATPase.html"

Snacks contain a lot of fat, mostly over 50%. A high intake of fat can increase BG. It is not the salt.

In view of above both both carbs,fat & salt can contribute bit more.

It has been noted that taking excess salt/salty snacks in excess raises BS levels after 3/6 days (not instantly) & reversed on reducing salt intake. How it can happen?

Fat. Salt is metabolized very quickly, not in 3-6 days. It is the fat.

OR, it may accumulate in few days to create effects.

Not directly, but antiacids are not recommended for diabetics, I do not remember exactly why.

It is new information. Pls do tell the reason if you remember.

Blood pH? Blood pH is releated to respiratory conditions.

May be lactic acid acumulation also.

Q4: How, weight gain, stay constant, & loose can be linked to various diabetes conditions?

A high body fat level increases insulin resistance.

High insulin by insulin resistance can also increase fats. When body not making insulin or low insulin level in system, weight loss can be possible. Weight seems to be directly linked to insulin levels.

Q5: How daily fluctuations (non-persisting high) & persisting high for long but studden fall, in BG levels can be linked to diabetic conditions & medications?

Too complex for simple answer, but of course medication designed to regulate BG will influence BG, what did you think?

It just looks to me that more daily fluctutions are linked to proper use of insulin--mean no IR, the other is linked to IR or improper use of insulin.

Q6: Which minerals & trace elements are related to diabetes & its complications?

None.

Some trace elements as Chromium, Zinc, Sel. is commonly said. Magnesium is also linked. But I am more intersested in Na, K, Ca,P & S--as these are also linked.

 

[MRC_Hans]

As you are not interested in my answers, I shall provide no more. Bye for now, Kumar.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

As you are not interested in my answers, I shall provide no more. Bye for now, Kumar.

Hans

Mr.Hans,

I think we are discussing, not in classroom. So nothing to mind.

 

[Kumar]

Logially & practically, it looks:-

High insulin levels as in IR, can trigger need for more sugar/food, better digestion(more acid scretion) & more absorption resulting in furthur increase of BG levels due to IR condition. Need for more food/sugar may therefore effect movement of food(constipation) through intestines.

In case of insulin dependant diabetes & where no IR, effects of BG levels, foods & insulin can be directly, quickly & accordingly noticed, whereas in IR cases it may not be noticed quickly & accordingly.

Is it ok?

 

[Kumar]

glucose generated by digestion of starch or lactose is absorbed in the small intestine only by cotransport with sodium, a fact that has exceptionally important implications in medicineAbsorption of Monosaccharides

Can, those who said that salt/salty snacks is not relevant to increase in BG, clear the same in view of above & previous quotes? Should I take it as a 'miss' or weakness of person or science

Personal Observation:

One about 65 year old patient with about 30 year diabetes history was lastly on insulin (40+unit) per day with persistant high BG. Due to some acute problem his kidneys were not passing urine. Few local doctors started dialysis--but probems were worsening. He then taken treatment from some senier doctors in big hospital of the country. Those doctors immediately stoped his salt intake & treatment mostly based on no/less salt therapy. He got cured from his kidney problem, his weight reduced. But ,surprising, his blood sugar droped substancially & his insulin intake comes down to about 10(-) units petr day with absolute control on BG which he never experianced in most of his history. In anticipation of kidney problem, he remained on salt control & sice last one year his BG is well controlled with least insulin intake. On enquiring from his doctors, they just say it sometimes happen or because he reduced his weight, but never said due to lowering of salt intake.

Other non-diabetic 72 year old slightly hypertensive, remained on salt restriction, usually found his BG bit on lower side 70/90. He feels bit vertigos/dizyness/light headedness which seems to be due to bit hypoglycemic shots. No one could yet tell his about his vertigos as he is non-diabetic-so no suspision of hypo shots.

What can you comment on this?

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/molecules/hexose_xport.html

 

[MRC_Hans]

Can, those who said that salt/salty snacks is not relevant to increase in BG, clear the same in view of above & previous quotes? Should I take it as a 'miss' or weakness of person or science

*snip*]

You should take it as a personal weakness:

YOUR personal weakness for taking things out of context.

YOUR personal weakness for reading only the synopsis and not the whole article.

YOUR personal weakness for picking random information you have googled and lumping it together uncritically.

In the current example: Just because sodium is involved in glucose uptake and there is sodium in salt, it does not follow that there is any connection between salt intake and blood glucose levels.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

In the current example: Just because sodium is involved in glucose uptake and there is sodium in salt, it does not follow that there is any connection between salt intake and blood glucose levels.

Hans

No it is not weakness of mine. When I ask question, means I want to know or confirm which in itself can be said as weakness , so addition of weakness to weakness can't be there.

Seconadly, your reply is just egoistic superiority, justification , avoidance and just splitting of hair. We take sodium mostly as NaCl, if your medical doctors says, NaCl can cause hypertention- it does not mean they they are wrong of fool. What is in practice that is more valid. Indication only, should be sufficient to wise person. So, if gained substancial knowledge from this, pls learn to praise & encourage to gain more----a believer's view.

Now, what do you say NaCl or Sodium in NaCl can cause increase in BG or not? What other body substances can be increased with this process?

 

[Kumar]

Justification to High Insulin( also by medication) as a cause/reason of IR or cell unwillingness/insenstivity can be persistant of sugar for long, no/less energy based weakness, no weight loss, gaining weight/obese by IR patient. It means glucose & insulin as much as body need can use but balance BG, insulin creates other complications. Low insulingn level in blood should cause weght loss, energy weakness, fluctuations in BG levels, thirst, excess urine etc.

Is it correct?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Seconadly, your reply is just egoistic superiority, justification , avoidance and just splitting of hair.

Egoistic or not, as it happens I AM superior to you in this subject. If pointing out that you are wrong is hairsplitting, then I am hairsplitting.


We take sodium mostly as NaCl, if your medical doctors says, NaCl can cause hypertention- it does not mean they they are wrong of fool.

WTF has this to do with it? Salt CAN cause hypertension. What has that to do with BG?

What is in practice that is more valid. Indication only, should be sufficient to wise person.

No, to go by indication only is sufficient only to a stupid person.

So, if gained substancial knowledge from this, pls learn to praise & encourage to gain more----a believer's view.

A fool's view.


Now, what do you say NaCl or Sodium in NaCl can cause increase in BG or not?

No.

What other body substances can be increased with this process?

Which process?

Pssssst, Kumar: Have you noticed that your little theory lacks internal logic ? IF intake of salt was linked to BG because sodium is part of the glucose uptake process, then it would LOWER the BG. The BG gets high because glucose uptake in cells is low. So, it would be a low sodium uptake that gave a high BG, and in fact it might, if there is actually a sodium deficiency, but that is a fairly rare condition.

I suggest you at least check your logic for simple things like that.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

Whatever you mould. Ok just tell,

Is any diabetic patient with persistant high BG levels discontinue Nacl or other sodium salt or sodium in any form for some time inspite he takes same level of carbohydrate,fats--will his BG levels come down substantially or not?

 

[MRC_Hans]

How do you mean discontinue? It is almost impossible to discontinue salt intake. There is salt in nearly all kinds of food.

I don't know how a serious sodium deficiency might affect BG, but believe me, you would not want to trade a high BG with a sodium deficience.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

I therefore mentioned 'for some time'. Just forget the salt deficiency, pls tell me about BG level (also protien similarily).

 

[Dr. Imago]

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mr.Hans,

I therefore mentioned 'for some time'. Just forget the salt deficiency, pls tell me about BG level (also protien similarily).

OK, we forget the salt. So, what do you wanna know about BG level?

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Basically i consider Kumar to be no more and no less of a troll here than you or I are at hpathy or otherhealth. At any time as he asks questions that can be answered sensibly, I will consider answering him.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

OK, we forget the salt. So, what do you wanna know about BG level?

Hans

Mr.Hans,

Looks to be good time. I got two shocks. One here other there. Really, your last post is loaded with tons of truth/sincerity. I may be behaving sensibily & insensibily( possibily alike photon-atom interactions) & asking relavent & irrelavent questions, but nothing in intentionally for trolling. I really impressed by your & bch post--today, thanks.

I mean if we don't take salt for some time, Na+K+ATP active transport system in intestine will not absorb sugar (protien also) as these can be actively cotransported only. It will lead to low sugar absorption & so will lower the BG levels. On the other side if we take salty food/snacks, both salt & sugar will be available & so will be cotransported resulting increase of sugar.

Today, I discussed this MISS over phone with one very senier diabetic doctor. Firstly, he told no salt relation with high BG similarily, but when I told justification/logic, he just shocked to hear & told, it looks ok, & will ckeck & take care.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Kumar, you will have to stop pronouncing it a MISS every time you encounter something you cannot understand. Try to realize that thousands of very qualified researchers are working in these fields, and while they have surely missed something here and there, the chance that an entirely uneducated person is going to stumble on the answer is, for all practical purposes, non-existent.

Now for sodium: It is true that if there was no sodium available in our body, then we could not absorb clucose. But there IS ALWAYS sodium available in the body. The concentration of NaCl in our body is kept within very close limits, and if you stop salt intake, you will be dead from sodium deficiency long before it can influence your BG. Likewise, if you take surplus salt, it will kill you before it can affect your clucose uptake.

This is the reason BG is not connected to salt intake.

Finally, as I have said before, your observations (increased BG 3 days after snack binge) do not support your theory. Salt and glucose uptake is fast, and any effect would show within 2-4 hours, not days.

....

About your "one very senier diabetic doctor": If this is the same doctor who prescribes high doses of insulin to initial type 2 patients, then excuse me if I am less than impressed.

A final note: This is my answer to the question. If you don't like it, live with it, don't ask again, because there will not be a different answer.

Hans