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Question for Gawdzilla

Then the Austrians had a problem too. An even bigger one, by that measure, as shown in the Anschluss referendum. Not a mere 97%!

The difference was that the Anschluss referendum was held by the occupying Nazis, after Austria was occupied. And is universally accepted as rigged. That doesn't apply to the support for secession in Czechoslovakia.

Must we say that Vienna groaned beneath the yoke of Austrian occupation until Hitler rescued it? Or may we accept that the Austrians and the Sudeteners succumbed to Nazi ethnic supremacism? The behaviour of many of them in subsequent years indicates that the latter supposition is not void of merit.

I wouldn't call it "Austrian yoke", but yes, Austria had been forbidden by the allies to unite with Germany.
 
Err... I just wrote one, but do I even need to have one? I wasn't aware that expecting people to be nice to minorities is conditional of it being convenient, and it not getting in the way of other things that could be achieved by being a dick to minorities.

So, the Sudeten Germans were being oppressed?
 
That seems a flawed comparison. Czechoslovakia got the Bohemian crown lands with the borders that had existed since 980 or so. Yugoslavia was also dismembered along existing borders of federal states. The Serbs in the Krajina would be a better comparison.
A good point. These lands did not belong to Germany prior to 1914, although they had been inhabited by Germans for many centuries. It is also of interest that German was the majority language in Prague until after 1860, and that it was the language of public announcements until about 1890. In older parts of the city the original German street names can sometimes still be seen, stencilled in attractive black Gothic script.
 
Yes, there was institutionalized discrimination going on against the Sudeten Germans. Wiki also mentions as a significant factor that unemployment was much, much higher than in the Czech heartland, mainly because the economy of Sudetenland relied much more on export - to Germany - than the economy of the Czech-speaking parts.

That IS a part of the reason, but the other is the same plain old institutionalized discrimination. German-owned factories were told to hire Czechs in proportion to the percentage of the total population, if they want economic aid in the crisis, for example, although the zones where the Czechs were, had less unemployment. Czechs were also actively settled in the zones with German majority, even though the high unemployment there wasn't made any better by adding more people. Public works projects in Sudetenland also saw Czech work crews dispatched there, instead of using the local unemployed. Etc.

Do you have a reference that expropriation etc. for the fortress line was another factor?

I doubt anyone made a study of which was the most unpopular issue, but keeping confiscating lands ever since the Land Control Act was very unpopular.

That seems a flawed comparison. Czechoslovakia got the Bohemian crown lands with the borders that had existed since 980 or so. Yugoslavia was also dismembered along existing borders of federal states. The Serbs in the Krajina would be a better comparison.

*shrug* something belonging to some kingdom in 980, hardly is accepted as a valid claim nowadays. I mean, equally northern Italy had been within the HRE borders at that time, and nobody took that as an invitation to redraw that border :p
 
A good point. These lands did not belong to Germany prior to 1914, although they had been inhabited by Germans for many centuries. It is also of interest that German was the majority language in Prague until after 1860, and that it was the language of public announcements until about 1890. In older parts of the city the original German street names can sometimes still be seen, stencilled in attractive black Gothic script.

Yes, those lands had not belonged to Germany, they had belonged to Austria. And originally the Sudeten Germans had wanted to secede to Austria. Does it make it less of a legitimate demand?
 
Yes, those lands had not belonged to Germany, they had belonged to Austria. And originally the Sudeten Germans had wanted to secede to Austria. Does it make it less of a legitimate demand?
Does it make annexation of the region by Germany less appropriate to be supported by the UK?
 
Is there any land in Europe that wasn't originally "owned" by somebody else?
No indeed. But I refer to recent political arrangements. Austria had never been owned by the German Empire, and neither had any part of Bohemia. The Treaty of Versailles forbade unification of Austria and Germany. Allowing Nazi Germany to annex everything in sight was not best way to amend that disastrous treaty.

But as far as this discussion about the fortifications is concerned, here is a major point not yet raised:
Chamberlain met Hitler in Godesberg on September 22 to confirm the [cession of Sudetenland] agreements. Hitler however, aiming to use the crisis as a pretext for war, now demanded not only the annexation of the Sudetenland but the immediate military occupation of the territories, giving the Czechoslovak army no time to adapt their defence measures to the new borders ... The Czechoslovak government, though not party to the talks, submitted to compulsion and promised to abide by the agreement ...
 
No indeed. But I refer to recent political arrangements. Austria had never been owned by the German Empire, and neither had any part of Bohemia.

Are you serious? Both had been not only core parts of the HRE, but actually had dynasties on the throne.

The Treaty of Versailles forbade unification of Austria and Germany. Allowing Nazi Germany to annex everything in sight was not best way to amend that disastrous treaty.

Well, then it's just as well that nobody actually proposed to allow anyone to just annex everything in sight. What was agreed is that an ethnic group, which the British delegation agreed that it is mis-treated, be allowed to secede to the country they felt they belonged more to.
 
But as far as this discussion about the fortifications is concerned, here is a major point not yet raised:

Exactly what do you think they needed to do there, that about a year (until they really got owned by Hitler) was not enough time to do? Pack the forts in the back of a truck and move them?
 
Are you serious? Both had been not only core parts of the HRE, but actually had dynasties on the throne.
I was intentionally avoiding reference to the remote past, having been rightly warned of its irrelevance. By German Empire I meant the pre-1914 Empire. Hitler did not claim all the territories of the HRE. He didn't even claim Czech Bohemia, though he later occupied it. He claimed the right to annex German inhabited lands. In fact he did not have this right under the prevailing international agreements then in force.
 
Exactly what do you think they needed to do there, that about a year (until they really got owned by Hitler) was not enough time to do? Pack the forts in the back of a truck and move them?
Have you thought this answer through? Hitler could have annexed the territory, and accorded to its Germanophone inhabitants any rights he saw fit to grant them. Meanwhile the Czechoslovak authorities could have retained the right of access to make suitable arrangements for the future security of their state. It could have gone on for as long as required, so long as the Czechoslovaks didn't interfere with the day to day administration of the area.
 
I was intentionally avoiding reference to the remote past, having been rightly warned of its irrelevance. By German Empire I meant the pre-1914 Empire. Hitler did not claim all the territories of the HRE. He didn't even claim Czech Bohemia, though he later occupied it. He claimed the right to annex German inhabited lands. In fact he did not have this right under the prevailing international agreements then in force.

Except what I was trying to say is that he didn't claim that right, and nobody granted him that right. If they had granted him the right to annex lands with a majority German population, then Danzig wouldn't have been the grenade pin of the world war.

The way it was framed was not that Hitler has a right to annex anything, but whether the Sudeten Germans have a right to secede from Czechoslovakia and join Germany, if that's what they want, and they're a majority in those lands.

ETA: What I'm trying to say is that people focus on ideas taken out of context like "appeasing Hitler" or "letting Germany annex some area", and lose sight of the context that the UK actually thought that the Sudeten Germans actually have a point. Or that the very reason why it looked like it's even possible to appease Hitler was because it looks like he's only demanding that a legitimate grievance be addressed, and the UK and France thought he'd only stick to such legitimate grievances. If anyone thought he's just demanding yet another random region, for no other reason than wanting to annex something, nobody would have assumed there's a limit to that.
 
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Have you thought this answer through? Hitler could have annexed the territory, and accorded to its Germanophone inhabitants any rights he saw fit to grant them. Meanwhile the Czechoslovak authorities could have retained the right of access to make suitable arrangements for the future security of their state. It could have gone on for as long as required, so long as the Czechoslovaks didn't interfere with the day to day administration of the area.

I have thought it through, but I'm drawing blanks as to what that would have even solved, or how would it realistically work. But I hope you'll elaborate on that, so we can discuss from there.
 
Verbal gymnastics are fun, aren't they?

As are such posts that don't add anything of value, apparently. Why bother actually reading some history and talking about it, when you can feel just as good by standing on the sidelines and making content-free snide remarks :p

I suppose you could call that verbal gymnastics though :p
 

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