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Question for Gawdzilla

This was compounded in Japan by the obdurate refusal by the militarists to believe they would EVER lose a war against anyone. The Spirit of Yamato would give them the advantage over crass material objects. This mindset lead to their feeding themselves into the killing grounds for men like Basilone to mow down by the hundreds.


The same attitude applied to the sea and air as well. A number of very good Japanese naval commanders went down with their ships, and Japanese fighters excelled in attack but were lightly built and could not stand up to punishment (e.g. no armour behind the pilot, no self-sealing fuel tanks). Add to that next-to-nothing in the way of air-sea rescue to recover downed pilots.
 
The same attitude applied to the sea and air as well. A number of very good Japanese naval commanders went down with their ships, and Japanese fighters excelled in attack but were lightly built and could not stand up to punishment (e.g. no armour behind the pilot, no self-sealing fuel tanks). Add to that next-to-nothing in the way of air-sea rescue to recover downed pilots.
Nor did they ever organise effective protected convoys for their merchant ships, which were therefore easily destroyed, wrecking the economy of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere".
 
Well, yes, but the simple explanation for that is that they just couldn't afford to produce a metric buttload of destroyers for that too.
 
Well, yes, but the simple explanation for that is that they just couldn't afford to produce a metric buttload of destroyers for that too.

And the larger picture is they couldn't afford to fight the US. This point is glossed over so many times in the run-up to Pearl Harbor. Even the Economic Minster presented ever-so-slightly rosy picture, making assumptions of pure victory for Japan and lack of will on the part of the US if Japan went to war with us.
 
Well, yes, but the simple explanation for that is that they just couldn't afford to produce a metric buttload of destroyers for that too.
They should have contented themselves with South Sakhalin, Manchukuo and the Kwantung Leased Territory.
 
They had at least one huge disadvantage. If a German pilot survived being shot down, he was taken prisoner. Surviving British pilots were often back in the air the same day.
Plus the advantage of shorter distances to their bases.

Also, here's one thing to think about: Germany didn't have the FUEL to pull the same stunt as the USA and send 6 crappy tanks against each Soviet tank. The USA was the major oil exporter at the time. Sure, it could afford to fuel any number of tanks. Germany had a massive fuel shortage. It just didn't have enough of it to try to counter 35,000 T-34 with 200,000 crappy little tanks.
True, the history of oil discoveries had an interesting, even fascinating, influence on WW2; the discovery of the East Texas oil fields by Columbus Joiner in 1930 for example. He was a con man who accidentally discovered huge oil deposits (the largest in the US at the time) with what was basically a prop for a scam he was running; the result was an oil stampede and prices plummeted from US$2 per barrel down to 20c, worsening the effects of the nascent Depression, encouraging protectionism and assisting Germany and Japan (oil importers) in their military expansions.

I think to a large extent it can be boiled down to two words: Hermann Göring. By all accounts he was a disaster as head of the Luftwaffe. Had someone like Adolf Galland been in charge, things almost certainly would have been much tougher for the Allied air forces (though in the end the Allies still win due to attrition).
Yeah someone like Galland might have stopped the Bomber Offensive but the result would have been Germany bludgeoned into submission by Allied resources and production; B29's over Germany and nuclear bombardment.

Nor did they ever organise effective protected convoys for their merchant ships, which were therefore easily destroyed, wrecking the economy of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere".
Plus their offensive submarine doctrine was terrible; killing Allied merchant shipping would have helped them.
 
I'd have to dig out the file from Aberdeen Proving Grounds. They went over their tiger with a team from MIT. It's in a box. Somewhere.

Part of it was the suspension system on the a Panther and Tigers. The interleaved road wheels gave a really smooth ride, but at the cost of difficult track maintenance. Repairs to an inner road wheel requiring the removal of three wheels (2outer and the inner) to accomplish.

And then there were the engines, the Germans chose to go with gas, a reasonable choice in the West where they could even use civilian filling stations in a pinch, but gasoline is very volatile which means it's easier to set the vehicle on fire. Also, the engines were manufactured to the usual high standards of German auto engineering, and we're simply incapable of being manufactured quickly.
 
And the larger picture is they couldn't afford to fight the US. This point is glossed over so many times in the run-up to Pearl Harbor. Even the Economic Minster presented ever-so-slightly rosy picture, making assumptions of pure victory for Japan and lack of will on the part of the US if Japan went to war with us.

Well, that particular revelation is true of all the Axis countries. They chose to fight a war for resources, because they didn't really have the resources to fight that war. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure out the logic there :p
 
Well, that particular revelation is true of all the Axis countries. They chose to fight a war for resources, because they didn't really have the resources to fight that war. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure out the logic there :p
It has always puzzled me. But I think it results largely from the hypnotic effects of false ideology, which has an inexhaustible capacity to induce the most bizarre delusions. Another possible example is the pretention of the secessionist states to be able to defeat the Union. They were as lucky to last as long as they did!
 
Part of it was the suspension system on the a Panther and Tigers. The interleaved road wheels gave a really smooth ride, but at the cost of difficult track maintenance. Repairs to an inner road wheel requiring the removal of three wheels (2outer and the inner) to accomplish.

And then there were the engines, the Germans chose to go with gas, a reasonable choice in the West where they could even use civilian filling stations in a pinch, but gasoline is very volatile which means it's easier to set the vehicle on fire. Also, the engines were manufactured to the usual high standards of German auto engineering, and we're simply incapable of being manufactured quickly.

Something (possibly in Weinberg's Big Book) I read a while ago suggested that another problem the Germans had was that their various tanks didn't share any (or very few) parts, which made maintenance a larger logistical problem than for (say) the US or the SU who tended to reuse bits.

Anyone got any idea if that's actually true?
 
Part of it was the suspension system on the a Panther and Tigers. The interleaved road wheels gave a really smooth ride, but at the cost of difficult track maintenance. Repairs to an inner road wheel requiring the removal of three wheels (2outer and the inner) to accomplish.

The wheels are not really part of the suspension, and it really was the suspension torsion bars that gave the smooth ride, rather than the number of wheels, but I think I can understand what you're trying to say.

The thing is, if you look at it, it's far from being over-engineered, since it's something that was rushed into production because heads would roll if someone reported a delay. It's not like someone sat and thought how to make it more sophisticated. They just took the design for a test vehicle that wasn't even supposed to be the final version, and just fit more wheels until they could take the weight.

The biggest restriction there being that the wheels actually had rubber tyres, which would get squashed and destroyed if they had to take more than a certain amount of force. So essentially you had the weight of the tank, divided by how much weight could such a tyre take, that gave you the number of wheels. And once you have that number, it starts to dawn that either you make a 100 ft long tank to keep them in a line, or you use more than one row of them. It's really that simple.

Later, when they could change the design, they replaced it with steel wheels, which got rid of two rows of wheels, leaving it overlapping instead of interleaved. They still couldn't completely redo the design, though, because changing the axles and suspension was essentially design and retooling that nobody wanted to pay for.

So essentially instead of being OVERengineered, it was something actually UNDERengineered.

Plus, there's the aspect that suspension and tracks were not actually designed for comfort (nobody really cared that much for the comfort of soldiers), but to (A) spread the weight enough to be usable on soft, muddy ground, which was actually the biggest problem in Russia (though it then proved to not be a very good solution, when that mud could freeze between your wheels), and (B) so you don't have mobility problems on rough and uneven terrain.

And then there were the engines, the Germans chose to go with gas, a reasonable choice in the West where they could even use civilian filling stations in a pinch, but gasoline is very volatile which means it's easier to set the vehicle on fire. Also, the engines were manufactured to the usual high standards of German auto engineering, and we're simply incapable of being manufactured quickly.

You do realize that the USA used gasoline engines too, right? There's a reason why the Sherman was called the "tommy cooker".

The more mundane explanation is that there was no such choice available at all. Germany just didn't have a Diesel engine designed, that could move such a massive tank, and again it had to be ready by a very tight deadline or else. The "choice" to use a gas engine had nothing to do with using civilian gas pumps, and was simply a matter of that being the only engine they had available "off the shelf", so to speak.

Basically the choice was either use the available Maybach engine, or explain to Hitler that you blew his deadline because you wanted to engineer your own better one. Which choice would YOU go for?

Again, it hardly was OVERengineering on the part of the designers of the Tiger. More like UNDERengineering again, as all they had time and funds to do was figure out how to use a given third-party engine.
 
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It has always puzzled me. But I think it results largely from the hypnotic effects of false ideology, which has an inexhaustible capacity to induce the most bizarre delusions. Another possible example is the pretention of the secessionist states to be able to defeat the Union. They were as lucky to last as long as they did!


Many CSA political leaders felt that no one was going to take the trouble to stop them from seceding; some even believed that the anti-slavery political faction would be glad to be rid of the slave states. This was, of course, a colossal miscalculation. Even so, the South still had an outside chance of achieving independence; not by defeating the Union, but by waiting for war-weariness to set in. Had the Southern leadership employed more of a Fabian strategy, Lincoln might possibly have lost his reelection bid to a "peace" Democrat. But that was, at best, a slim hope. Sam Houston called it perfectly in February of 1861:

Some of you laugh to scorn the idea of bloodshed as the result of secession, but let me tell you what is coming....Your fathers and husbands, your sons and brothers, will be herded at the point of the bayonet....You may after the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, as a bare possibility, win Southern independence...but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of state rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction...they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South.
(source)


In World War II, conversely, after mid-1941, there was practically no chance that the Allies were going to stop anywhere short of unconditional surrender.
 
Well, that particular revelation is true of all the Axis countries. They chose to fight a war for resources, because they didn't really have the resources to fight that war. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure out the logic there :p

And in almost every case they invaded countries with less wealth than they had, the have-nots taking from the don't-have-a-pots.:p
 
It has always puzzled me. But I think it results largely from the hypnotic effects of false ideology, which has an inexhaustible capacity to induce the most bizarre delusions. Another possible example is the pretention of the secessionist states to be able to defeat the Union. They were as lucky to last as long as they did!

For the Nazis and the Japanese it was a case of moral superiority, I believe. They thought they could beat the other nations because they were just plain old better than the other guys.
 
And in almost every case they invaded countries with less wealth than they had, the have-nots taking from the don't-have-a-pots.:p
By far the most fruitful source of plunder for the Nazis was France. The French did have pots.

ETA
The occupation charges initially proved greater than the Germans could spend and accumulated as unspent credits in the account of the Reichskreditkassen (Banque de France, Comptes rendus, 1941-1942)
 
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