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Question for Gawdzilla

Craig B said:
Problem wasn't only that they were destroyers, but that they were obsolete and dilapidated. See wiki
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They were also cheaper to refit than to build new ones from scratch.

Plus, the USA then gave the UK ten more, newer ships, albeit sloops. Out of a total 10 the USA had. But they were good ASW ships this time, since we're talking why the USA didn't have many ASW ships left.

Also, I'd say they couldn't have been THAT bad, if even the Japanese bothered salvaging and running a Clemson-class.

Also, frankly, I don't know WTH were the brits expecting. Even giving them those ships required breaking the Hague convention, since it did count as taking part in the war according to international treaties. Also the USA had a "Neutrality Act" which was bypassed to even give the brits any weaponry at all, by classifying it as surplus. So, really, WTH did they expect? That the USA can build them some brand new, ultra-modern ships directly as surplus? :p
 
HansMustermann said:
... Also, frankly, I don't know WTH were the brits expecting. ... That the USA can build them some brand new, ultra-modern ships directly as surplus? :p
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I think that some of the concern arose from the bases deal that accompanied the provision of the ships. Anyway, the UK has now paid off its war debts to the USA. In 2008. But it has to be agreed that without US generosity, whether this suited the US politically or not, Britain would have been in desperate straits.
 
Craig B said:
I think that some of the concern arose from the bases deal that accompanied the provision of the ships. Anyway, the UK has now paid off its war debts to the USA. In 2008. But it has to be agreed that without US generosity, whether this suited the US politically or not, Britain would have been in desperate straits.
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Yep. The deal was provoked by a message from WSC to FDR saying the Brits were near to their tether ends.
 
Well, I still don't think that the bases deal was a disadvantage to the UK as it is, as it allowed them to just leave the Americans guard those bases and move their own fleet to more useful theatres. In fact, as I've said before, the UK even gave the USA basing rights in two extra places for nothing, after which it proceeded to withdraw their own defenses from there. Those places were somewhat guarded by the UK before, and then they just became the USA's problem to defend. Not to mention that at least at first, attacking any of those places meant declaring war on the still neutral USA.

The UK also got the right to use all the airfields and naval bases that the USA built there, although the USA alone footed the bill for their construction.

All in all, I don't think that that price was something bad for the UK even by itself, and much less compared to anything else that could have convinced the American public that they're getting something worth it. Really the only loss IMHO is the loss of imperial prestige in such a deal.

But, meh, between losing a little face and getting reamed by Hitler, I'd take the former any day :p
 
HansMustermann said:
Really the only loss IMHO is the loss of imperial prestige in such a deal.
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Believe me, I agree wholeheartedly with that. But for other imperial issues, of greater moment, see this on the Atlantic Conference. http://history.state.gov/milestones/1937-1945/atlantic-conf
Roosevelt ... wished to arrange the terms by which Great Britain would repay the United States for its Lend Lease assistance. Roosevelt wanted the British to pay compensation by dismantling their system of Imperial Preference, which had been established by the British Government during the Great Depression and was designed to encourage trade within the British Empire by lowering tariff rates between members, while maintaining discriminatory tariff rates against outsiders.
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Now, that was something - prising open the British Empire!
Finally, both Churchill and many members of his Cabinet were alarmed by the third point of the Charter, which mentions the rights of all peoples to choose their own government. Churchill was concerned that this clause acknowledged the right of colonial subjects to agitate for decolonization, including those in Great Britain’s empire.
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And that was something too!
 
HansMustermann said:
And a lot of the attacks on unprotected convoys were on the surface with the guns.
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Contrary to the popular conception of submarines stalking their targets from underwater and launching torpedoes from periscope depth, most submarine attacks during the earlier part of the war were in fact performed on the surface at night. Submarines were small and very difficult to spot at night visually, and on the surface there were far quicker and more maneuverable than when submerged.

Indeed, once improvements in radar drove the submarines from the surface at night, their ability to conduct successful attacks against convoys dropped markedly.
 
Oh, I'm not contesting any of that. Just saying that even a destroyer with poor characteristics for ASW, like the ones given to the UK, could have denied the German subs that kind of opportunities.
 
Craig B said:
Yes. Perhaps the RN were a bit unhappy, given their glorious traditions, to have to depend on Uncle Sam's hand-me-downs. However, they weren't very good ships, by all accounts; and the price paid for them, even if only in imperial prestige, was not negligible.
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They had some extraordinary uses . . .


:blackcat:
 
Gawdzilla said:
Sorry I didn't google the spelling.
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The correct spelling of the Scottish town name is Campbeltown anyway, so I got it wrong too! A most excellent whisky is distilled there.
Springbank Single Malt is the most popular ... Its standard bottling is a 10 year old, distilled two and a half times, and is not chill-filtered, nor does it have colour added. Distilling whisky two and a half times is quite unusual
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but evidently produces a very satisfactory result. Sorry for derail.
 
HansMustermann said:
Also, I think that saying it was fifteen months, is a little misleading. The real unprotected phase was more like January 1942 to about April 1942, since by the end of March the USA had actually received some ASW ships and airplanes from the UK and was starting to take measures to minimize ship losses. Plus, for all the quips about the Canadian military, they actually did have ASW ships and started escorting American convoys around the same time.

By May 1942, actually the USA did have a full convoy system, and Germany was starting to look for easier pickings elsewhere, after losing a few submarines.

And the whole problem continued at a lower intensity until August 1942 at most, and after may, mostly elsewhere than simply going along the eastern coast. After May, they were actually going for the shipping in the Caribbean, and in July they were shifted back to the middle of the Atlantic.

So basically while the USA were not prepared for that, they also weren't, you know, completely retarded. The fact that they didn't have protected convoys at first, doesn't mean that continued for 15 months. It's really more like 3 months.
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Another serious problem was the initial failure to require coastal towns and cities to implement a blackout; this often led to ships' being silhouetted against lighted skylines, making them easy targets at night.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Another serious problem was the initial failure to require coastal towns and cities to implement a blackout; this often led to ships' being silhouetted against lighted skylines, making them easy targets at night.
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Astonishingly, I have read that this was due to the reluctance of local interest groups to introduce any measure that might hurt tourism.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Like the old Soviet saying: "'Best' is the enemy of 'good enough.'"
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Stalin also said "Quantity has a quality all its own" which does seem appropriate for the T-34

HansMustermann said:
I don't see how. In fact, I can't think of a single piece of them that's "overengineered", as opposed to serving a purpose. But no doubt you have some clear examples in mind, so please share.
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I think Gawdzilla was referring to the number of man hours required to construct a Tiger E compared to a Sherman. The Entwicklung series was meant to eliminate this problem. I don't think Gawdzilla meant "Over engineering" as in the case of the MG-34 jamming due to too fine tolerances.

Anyhow none of this is important. On my last secret mission to Leningrad, I finally took the photographic evidence that prove ПтицыГрома (Thunderbirds) and Международное Спасение (International Rescue) were yet another Russian post war invention stolen by the capitalistic running dogs of British children's television. Here are photos of Thunderbird 1, Thunderbird 3 and other useful Russian rescue equipment.

The last photo is of the Jupiter II from "Lost in Space" that the Russians shot down over Chelyabinsk in the 60's and turned into a Metro station. The reactionary running dogs of the USA now claim it was a fictional TV show like Thunderbirds.
 

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