Question for Christians - #3

[Ossai]

elliotfc

God is not contingent on definitions that humans construct. He is not compelled to follow the Dictionary.

Actually since god is a human construct, I would say that he is indeed compelled to follow human definitions.

Definitions of concepts are nice. Omnipotence, if it exists, would exist fully (or exist at all) only in God. So what God is would be the actual NON-HUMAN-CONCEPTUAL existence of omnipotence/omniscience.

Since humans have conceptualized omnipotence and since god is the actual non-human conceptualization, does that mean that god is non-conceptual, i.e. non-existant.

And I'll take that for what it is, and not what you or me or anyone else would have it to be.

Kitty Chan

They did know God because it says they turned the Grace of God, it doesnt apply to what your trying to say, thats all

Nope, they weren’t allowed the grace of god.

Romans says we could conform to or as I said simply put try to be like Jesus whom is the first born. And states that God would not start a work in you to abandon you He would stay and near the end it finished off by saying that nothing can separate us from Gods love. Its not saying as you say about everyone is predestined.

Funny, that’s not what the text says. (color mine)

Romans 8:29 - 31
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Now, if God is not writing ones next move then they are responsible for their own moves and the results of those moves. This is where most people dont want to be, responsible. Its better to blame God than take blame themselves for their own actions.

Ah, but you haven’t read your bible. God already knows everything and created everything, which would mean that god did indeed ‘write my next moves’, in fact, everyone’s prior, current and next moves.

God said heres your life, heres the instructions, you can follow or make up your own, your choice. Just like a parent raises a child and eventually has to let go and see how a child does.

What instructions? You can’t be referring to the BuyBull can you, certainly not that pile of hate mongering.

Riddick

So then, it comes down to either 1) not create you at all or 2) create you, knowing what your choices will be.

If you have made your choice, and you are happy with your choice, what is wrong with that?

No choice involved.

God creates person A to do X. Person A does X. Did person A have a choice?
If person A could do not X then god was wrong. If person A must do X, for god to be correct, then person A does not have a choice. At best the illusion of choice.

Ossai

 

[Kitty Chan]

{

Originally posted by Ossai

Nope, they weren’t allowed the grace of god.

Here is the scripture again;

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Certain men creeping in unawares are false teachers who play at being scriptural. They do not regard God at all. They take the idea of grace and use it for a excuse to sin, by saying God loves to forgive so they abuse it. This condemnation is to do with Enochs prophecy of ungodly men as these were. That they were to come along at a point in time, men just like these. So, they were allowed Grace they did not take it.

It is not God writing a role for a puppet.



Ossai
Funny, that’s not what the text says. (color mine)

Romans 8:29 - 31
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


OK I will explain it another way God sees our lives, its like He is watching a rerun or now as I said before. He see you as you do it but does not write your moves.

If God is writing your life then why do you have to choose to follow Him? These scriptures simply do not say what you are trying to have them say.



Ossai
Ah, but you haven’t read your bible. God already knows everything and created everything, which would mean that god did indeed ‘write my next moves’, in fact, everyone’s prior, current and next moves.


Yes God know everything and created everything but He did not write your next moves.

I said the following, how does God writing your moves fit into this:

God is not a slave to time, He is not confined to it like we are. God is outside the time line we follow. All the days are now to Him. Where they are yesterday, today and tommorow for us.

God is not tied to time as we are. He sees as you do it, so how can He be writing your next move?

The point is next, and I believe the reason for wanting God to be the writer of ones moves.

If God is not writing ones next move then they are responsible for their own moves and the results of those moves. This is where most people dont want to be, responsible.

Its better to blame God than take blame themselves for their own actions.

God said heres your life, heres the instructions, His Word, you can follow or make up your own, your choice.

See, its ones choice if God was writing your life there would be no choice.

Now, you claim hate mongering, with all due respect that is a party lline. It would like me saying oh atheists have no morals, thats a party line. What good is that?

Hate mongering only comes from this idea that Gods writing a life. We do write our own moves and are responsible for them.

 

[Ossai]

Kitty Chan

They did know God because it says they turned the Grace of God, it doesnt apply to what your trying to say, thats all

And yet the BuyBull clearly states that god created the wicked for that purpose. Again I ask, can a person override god?

If God is writing your life then why do you have to choose to follow Him? These scriptures simply do not say what you are trying to have them say.

Actually I have just been restating the scriptures. You are the one interpreting the scriptures to mean something else.

I said the following, how does God writing your moves fit into this:

God is not a slave to time, He is not confined to it like we are. God is outside the time line we follow. All the days are now to Him. Where they are yesterday, today and tommorow for us.

God is not tied to time as we are. He sees as you do it, so how can He be writing your next move?

You keep stating it but not seeing it. Let me try and break it down a bit.

God created everything.
God is ‘outside’ time.

That means god created the past, present and future simultaneously.
Which means every action you or anyone else does was deliberately caused by god.

You keep removing freewill and haven’t even realized it.

If God is not writing ones next move then they are responsible for their own moves and the results of those moves. This is where most people dont want to be, responsible.

Not quiet. One of the big reasons I’m no longer a Christian is I believe in personal responsibility, not in fobbing off my misdeeds to others i.e. begging forgiveness from god. The other reason is I actually read the bible and observed all the Good Christians around me and their actions.

God said heres your life, heres the instructions, His Word, you can follow or make up your own, your choice.

Which includes stoning disobedient children, rape and genocide.

See, its ones choice if God was writing your life there would be no choice.

According to the bible, there is no choice, merely the illusion of one.

Now, you claim hate mongering, with all due respect that is a party lline. It would like me saying oh atheists have no morals, thats a party line. What good is that?

Every, and I mean every, Christian sect I’ve ever interacted with at one time or another basically breaks the world down to Us vs. Them. Some, CoC come to mind, are more prone to do so than others.

Ossai

 

[elliotfc]

Actually since god is a human construct, I would say that he is indeed compelled to follow human definitions.

I don't think I have responded to this yet, I apologize if I already have.

Well there you go. You, by default, assume that God is a human construct, and since you do that, we are talking past each other. My premise is different. So at least we understand our quibble over God/omnipotence.

Since humans have conceptualized omnipotence and since god is the actual non-human conceptualization, does that mean that god is non-conceptual, i.e. non-existant.

I don't think that non-conceptual corresponds to non-existant by any means.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Yet the bible states that he wants to do it, does it and has done it (predestination that is) for everyone (or at least all those already saved by grace or destined for hell).

Well certainly given facts and objective realities and eternal justice, God would have the suitable "sentence" for each human soul. Of course my conceptions of heaven/hell aren't exactly found in the Bible, so I'm not really referring to, or explicitly defending what you say that the Bible states.

Destiny follows from the choices made, and since God isn't arbitrary and has perfect justice, the destiny will be...well, self-evident from God's point of view. Does that make sense? Yes, the destination is certain, for their is no other alternatives when you're talking about perfect justice.

Not false or irrelevant, just repeating what’s in the bible.

That's what I love about skeptics, they're often bigger Bible believers than me.

i know i know i know

Frankly theology (even if you're a fundamentalist Bible-based Christian) has evolved past the Bible. The Bible evolves within itself. What are we talking about again? There's still free choice and there's still eternal justice. Predestination? Why not? Cause and effect is the most natural thing in the world.

If god knows person A will make choice X, can person A choose not X?

It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're saying that God's knowledge has some influence over the human choice. I say that they correspond. In God's case the correspondence is concurrent and instantaneous. But God's knowledge is contingent on the human choice (remember, free will, the thing that you have a problem with).

Specifically within your query, God's power does not compel the choice. In fact your query is itself contradictory. If god knows person A will make choice X, how can person A not make choice X?

If you answer ‘yes’ then god’s knowledge wasn’t perfect.
If you answer ‘no’ then person A does not have a choice, just the illusion of one.

Tough to give a yes or no answer to a question with a fundamental flaw, that negates itself.

You'll get no answer from me. Yay for you. If you supply more questions with inherent contradiction, you'll leave me speechless and I'll concede anything you'd like.

A restatement of what you just said. My choices in life are meaningless, therefore I’m not responsible for the harm I do to myself or others. I’ve got a free pass to heaven, and forgiveness, as long as I ask Jesus for it.

No, everything has meaning.

Yes, you are responsible for any harm you do (that's why you need to ask forgiveness). If we weren't responsible, there's no need to ask for forgiveness.

No, you do not have a free pass to heaven. The pass was paid for by blood and suffering. There's nothing free about it. By saying it's free you clearly don't understand, reject, or have contempt for the magnitude of the Incarnation.

Yes, you have to ask. It has to be sincere and total, and includes a rejection of pride and admission of all of the wrong done. Total capitulation. Each particular sin must be addressed. The wrong done to others must be experienced. It's not bye bye sin, nice knowing you. Rather, you'll feel the pain that you caused others. You may even be confronted by the people you've hurt. Piece of cake you think? I doubt it. Pride is a tough thing to let go of. Admitting that you're wrong, and ditching all of the excuses? Ruminate over that one. Think you're up to it? If not, then you admit that it isn't a free pass.

And how do I know all of this? It's not in the Bible. Exactly. It's just Catholic theology. If you're trying to get me to accept that the Bible's explanations for the afterlife don't cut it, I'll agree with you on that one.

Richard, the Bible (on this one) is your salvation. Just don't use it as an excuse. Remember, if all we needed was the Bible, there would have been no Incarnation. It's not like Jesus wrote the Bible.

You can restate what I say the way you'd like, and you'll miss what I'm saying every time. You want my understandings and explanations to fit in your little box, the box that demands simplicity and 6-year old explanations. See, you've made your choice. You can't think past what you've already assumed. And believe me, God didn't force you to do that. And if you think he did, you must be one hell of a mental weakling.

-Elliot

 

[Ossai]

Elliotfc

Destiny follows from the choices made, and since God isn't arbitrary and has perfect justice, the destiny will be...well, self-evident from God's point of view. Does that make sense?

Stick to English definition, please.

Destiny
1 : something to which a person or thing is destined
2 : a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency

Yes, the destination is certain, for their is no other alternatives when you're talking about perfect justice.

There's still free choice and there's still eternal justice. Predestination? Why not? Cause and effect is the most natural thing in the world.

Again stick to the definitions. Predestination rules out free choice.

It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're saying that God's knowledge has some influence over the human choice. I say that they correspond. In God's case the correspondence is concurrent and instantaneous.

And you’ve just dropped omnipotent from God by limiting god by time.

But God's knowledge is contingent on the human choice (remember, free will, the thing that you have a problem with).

If god foreknows (knowledge of the future) how can that be contingent on a person’s choice? God already knows person A will do X. Can person A choose not X?

Tough to give a yes or no answer to a question with a fundamental flaw, that negates itself.

Point out the flaw. I’ve merely restated, in common parlance, what is stated in the bible and ask a valid question.

No, you do not have a free pass to heaven. The pass was paid for by blood and suffering. There's nothing free about it. By saying it's free you clearly don't understand, reject, or have contempt for the magnitude of the Incarnation.

Apparently you don’t understand the definition of ‘free’. It doesn’t matter if someone else paid for it and then gave it to you, from your perspective it is free.
Now we could go into the predestined bit – completely free, or asking for forgiveness – token payment.

Rather, you'll feel the pain that you caused others. You may even be confronted by the people you've hurt.

And you get this from where?

And how do I know all of this? It's not in the Bible. Exactly. It's just Catholic theology. If you're trying to get me to accept that the Bible's explanations for the afterlife don't cut it, I'll agree with you on that one.

So you’ve just stated, in so many words, that the bible is wrong. How is one supposed to know what parts are correct and which parts are incorrect? Or do you just throw out any bits you don’t like?

Ossai

 

[Kitty Chan]

Kitty - They did know God because it says they turned the Grace of God, it doesnt apply to what your trying to say, thats all

Ossai - And yet the BuyBull clearly states that god created the wicked for that purpose. Again I ask, can a person override god?

Kitty - Jude does not say that. If this is a jump to another scripture which one?
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Kitty - If God is writing your life then why do you have to choose to follow Him? These scriptures simply do not say what you are trying to have them say.

Ossai - Actually I have just been restating the scriptures. You are the one interpreting the scriptures to mean something else.

Kitty - Sorry no interpreting on my part, just reading and understanding.
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Kitty - I said the following, how does God writing your moves fit into this:

God is not a slave to time, He is not confined to it like we are. God is outside the time line we follow. All the days are now to Him. Where they are yesterday, today and tommorow for us.

God is not tied to time as we are. He sees as you do it, so how can He be writing your next move?

Ossai - You keep stating it but not seeing it. Let me try and break it down a bit.
God created everything.
God is ‘outside’ time.
That means god created the past, present and future simultaneously.
Which means every action you or anyone else does was deliberately caused by god.
You keep removing freewill and haven’t even realized it.

Kitty - I am seeing it, you are still a slave to time, you are thinking as if God is moving through it. God has no past or future, He is in present.

He did not deliberately cause every action you or I have done. WE are responsible, we choose.
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Kitty - If God is not writing ones next move then they are responsible for their own moves and the results of those moves. This is where most people dont want to be, responsible.

Ossai - Not quiet. One of the big reasons I’m no longer a Christian is I believe in personal responsibility, not in fobbing off my misdeeds to others i.e. begging forgiveness from god. The other reason is I actually read the bible and observed all the Good Christians around me and their actions.

Kitty - Like elliot said if you think that when you do something wrong you just fob it off on God. Do you realise, this is WHAT Jude was talking about how they misuse the Grace of God.

Your second point I understand you to say because the christians around you did not measure up to your standards you judged them unworthy.
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Kitty - God said heres your life, heres the instructions, His Word, you can follow or make up your own, your choice.

Osssi - Which includes stoning disobedient children, rape and genocide.

Kitty - What about love your neighbour as yourself? Thats a teaching of Christ. Once again you are looking at bits and not the whole.
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Kitty - See, its ones choice if God was writing your life there would be no choice.

Ossai - According to the bible, there is no choice, merely the illusion of one.

Kitty - This is quoted where? no choice just a illusion.
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Kitty - Now, you claim hate mongering, with all due respect that is a party lline. It would like me saying oh atheists have no morals, thats a party line. What good is that?

Ossai - Every, and I mean every, Christian sect I’ve ever interacted with at one time or another basically breaks the world down to Us vs. Them. Some, CoC come to mind, are more prone to do so than others.

Kitty - I agree every HUMAN on this planet gets out the Us and Them flags. (Yosemite Sam and Bugs Bunny did as well )

WE are ALL wicked and sinful creatures. Adam and Eve were created and as God said about all He created "it was good" You are mistaking the fall with God creating people to be wicked.

The knowledge was the knowledge of good and evil. That God did not want us to suffer. But we do. He did not leave us stranded He gave a way to get rid of the evil or sinful natures.

I find it fasinating that God could be blamed for what we do but the one responsible (Lucifier) is the one getting the pass.

You are correct that those whom are christians should act different, but the secret is they TRY but probably are not perfect. The bible is clear about personal responsibility thats why all the parts about repenting. Like elliot said responsibility is harder than thought.

 

[Ossai]

Kitty Chan

Jude does not say that. If this is a jump to another scripture which one?

Sorry, I may have mixed this thread up with another. I’ll go back and look.

Kitty - I am seeing it, you are still a slave to time, you are thinking as if God is moving through it. God has no past or future, He is in present.

He did not deliberately cause every action you or I have done. WE are responsible, we choose.

If god is omnipotent and always in the present – from god’s perspective, then from our perspective god already knows the future. Can we go against what god already knows?

It still boils down to: God knows the future – not predicts but knows. Can a person something that god does not know or can a person do something different than god knows?

Kitty - Like elliot said if you think that when you do something wrong you just fob it off on God. Do you realise, this is WHAT Jude was talking about how they misuse the Grace of God.

Reference on this one please.

Your second point I understand you to say because the christians around you did not measure up to your standards you judged them unworthy.

Actually the god of the bible doesn’t even measure up to my (or even western societies) rather low standards.

Kitty - What about love your neighbour as yourself? Thats a teaching of Christ. Once again you are looking at bits and not the whole.

Which is the same thing you are doing. You are just looking at the nice fluffy bits and ignoring the majority.

Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Rom.9:11-22 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

WE are ALL wicked and sinful creatures. Adam and Eve were created and as God said about all He created "it was good" You are mistaking the fall with God creating people to be wicked.

What fall? The myth of Adam and Eve – any evidence for them at all? If you’ll bother reading Genesis, god set them up to fail. Prior to them eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge they did not know right from wrong. Then when they gain that knowledge god punishes them for it.

I find it fasinating that God could be blamed for what we do but the one responsible (Lucifier) is the one getting the pass.

Actually it is the serpent that ‘tempted’ them, not Lucifier.

The bible is clear about personal responsibility thats why all the parts about repenting. Like elliot said responsibility is harder than thought.

Again a token payment for transgressions against others. Shouldn’t you be asking those whom you’ve wronged for forgiveness and not god or do they not count in the grand scheme of things?

Ossai

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Kitty said:
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The bible is clear about personal responsibility thats why all the parts about repenting. Like elliot said responsibility is harder than thought.
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Ossai said:
Again a token payment for transgressions against others. Shouldn’t you be asking those whom you’ve wronged for forgiveness and not god or do they not count in the grand scheme of things?

Ossai

Or just not wrong anyone in the first place?

People know when they are behaving badly. The hope, is that they won't get caught , or if they do, maybe they will be forgiven...

I think asking for forgiveness from anyone is mostly a bunch of crap. ( Least of all from some dead guy, who wasn't the one you sh&t on). It sends the message :

" I can do whatever I want, as long as I say " I'm sorry. " later..

Saying " Forgive me . " Is another dose of selfishness on top of the wrongdoing that you did in the first place.

I'ts about making you feel better, it doesn't undo what you did.

 

[elliotfc]

Elliotfc
Stick to English definition, please.

Destiny
1 : something to which a person or thing is destined
2 : a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency[

No problem with definition 1. Free will can co-exist with definition 1.

In my opinion, definition 2 does not apply to God. I don't believe that God created entities who have no free will.

Again stick to the definitions. Predestination rules out free choice.

Naw. A destination, within the confines of perfect justice, can certainly and postitively apply, without exception, to every thing which is subject to the perfect justice. Free choice is variable in that different choices can be made, but there are certain consequences that are PRE-DETERMINED for the choices. That's what's predestined. The fate that MUST follow from the free choices. Our choices aren't pre-destined. But there is a pre-destined fate for each choice, or ourselves as beings with free choice.

I'm talking pre-destination as a certain destiny here. Free choice corresponds to certain destiny. That is why they can, and do, co-exist! I am personally empowered by this way of thinking. I have something to do with my destination. Yes it is predestined, and thank God for that. By knowing how the perfect justice works out, my faith in predestination makes my choices clear. If there was no pre-destination, how could I guide my choices? If the destiny is arbitrary and imperfect, free will is truly a lie.

And you’ve just dropped omnipotent from God by limiting god by time.

Oh I disagree with that. I said that God's knowledge corresponds to the human choice. That doesn't mean that God doesn't possess that knowledge eternally.

If god foreknows (knowledge of the future) how can that be contingent on a person’s choice? God already knows person A will do X. Can person A choose not X?

Because he allows free will. Since he allows free will, he allows the choices of free will. Since he allows the choices of free will, his knowledge is instantaneously concurrent with those choices, yet he also is aware of this concurrence at all times, because he is God.

I can't answer the second part because they are senseless when connected. If your point was to have me recognize that "God already knows person A will do X. Can person A choose not X?" makes no sense, I recognize that.

Apparently you don’t understand the definition of ‘free’. It doesn’t matter if someone else paid for it and then gave it to you, from your perspective it is free.

ARGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Well you've just gone ahead and stomped on the essence of my religion! See, we Christians only repeat, ad nauseum, that GOD PAID THE PRICE for our sins, so I am not about to say that this is a free deal.

If someone hands you a cheeseburger and says it's free, you apparently don't think it matters if someone else paid for it. But I'm not that kind of person. Christians aren't going to think like you do. Christians think it DOES MATTER that God paid the price for our sins.

You are demonstrating that you disagree with how Christians think. You certainly aren't defining our theology.

Regarding the definition of free....YOU YOURSELF admit it is a matter of pespective. From someone else's perspective it isn't free. In fact, if it is paid for, by DEFINITION, the thing is not inherently free. Go back to the cheeseburger. Was the cheeseburger free? Kindly withhold your personal perspective, and answer the question objectively? Was the cheeseburger free? No, not if someone paid for it.

Now we could go into the predestined bit – completely free, or asking for forgiveness – token payment.

It isn't a token if it's the most important thing that matters in the end. Agreed? Let's see if I can get you to agree with a hypothetical. If, hypothetically speaking, it is the most important thing in the end, can you really call it a token? Feel free to use your dictionary for that one.

And you get this from where?

Just as there are thousands of descriptions of Heaven and Hell, there are thousands of descriptions of Purgatory. Purgatory is not to be found in the Bible, it is a Catholic dogma that I accept, and that I explain in my own individual way, a way that co-exists and often corresponds to I don't know how many other hundreds of explanations of purgatory I have encountered. If you want to limit yourself to the Bible, then surely you would reject Purgatory. (For clarification purposes, do you limit yourself to the Bible in your beliefs?)

[B}So you’ve just stated, in so many words, that the bible is wrong.[/B]

It is what it is, and I accept it for what it is. I don't believe that the ENTIRETY of objective reality is in the Bible. Does that make it wrong? That could make everything wrong. I do recognize that there are many contradictions in the Bible. Does that make it wrong? It does, if you believe that there was only one author of the Bible who was intent on complete internal harmony.

I wouldn't classify the Bible as wrong, and I'm not dodging your question. It is what it is. If you must see the Bible in black and white, take your pick. I read the Bible and I follow the evolution of theological ideas. This would be akin to me saying that the theory of evolution is wrong because evolutionary ideas have evolved over time.

How is one supposed to know what parts are correct and which parts are incorrect?

Discernment. Understanding that perspectives have changed over the centuries. Having a healthy respect for the centuries of hermeneutics that are available. Like all things, every human must do the best they can to suss out all that is before him or her. Respect will be given to effort. I'm not sure how much respect will be given to absolute a priori rejection. But I don't think you're doing that, because you seem to be thinking through the Bible.

Or do you just throw out any bits you don’t like?

You could do that, but I don't throw out any bits of the Bible. I think it's all in there, for good reason.

-Elliot

 

[Skeptical Greg]

ARGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Well you've just gone ahead and stomped on the essence of my religion! See, we Christians only repeat, ad nauseum, that GOD PAID THE PRICE for our sins, so I am not about to say that this is a free deal.

If someone hands you a cheeseburger and says it's free, you apparently don't think it matters if someone else paid for it. But I'm not that kind of person. Christians aren't going to think like you do. Christians think it DOES MATTER that God paid the price for our sins.

Pointing out that God paid the price for our sins is like saying Bill Gates gave me a free copy of Windows.


Maybe Ossai is suggesting that Ray Kroc is handing you the cheeseburger..?


Have you heard the story of " The widows mite? "


Explain the magnanimity of calling the fire deprtment after you have started a fire?

 

[KingMerv00]

"...GOD PAID THE PRICE ..."

By torturing his son?

Seems kinda unnecessary.

 

[Ossai]

Elliotfc

No problem with definition 1. Free will can co-exist with definition 1.

How?
If person A is destined to do X, can they do not X?

Free choice is variable in that different choices can be made, but there are certain consequences that are PRE-DETERMINED for the choices. That's what's predestined. The fate that MUST follow from the free choices. Our choices aren't pre-destined. But there is a pre-destined fate for each choice, or ourselves as beings with free choice.

You are incorrectly using the terms. You’ve set up a straw man. You’re mixing pre-determined consequence verses predestined action. Stick to action in the example.

I'm talking pre-destination as a certain destiny here. Free choice corresponds to certain destiny.

Same straw man. You are still mixing action and consequence of action.

And you’ve just dropped omnipotent from God by limiting god by time.

Oh I disagree with that. I said that God's knowledge corresponds to the human choice. That doesn't mean that God doesn't possess that knowledge eternally.

That’s what I’ve been saying. From our perspective, god already knows. Can a person do something that god does not know?

If god foreknows (knowledge of the future) how can that be contingent on a person’s choice? God already knows person A will do X. Can person A choose not X?

Because he allows free will. Since he allows free will, he allows the choices of free will. Since he allows the choices of free will, his knowledge is instantaneously concurrent with those choices, yet he also is aware of this concurrence at all times, because he is God.

You are limiting god again by making him dependent upon human action. Is god omnipotent or not?If god is omnipotent then god does not rely on human action.

If someone hands you a cheeseburger and says it's free, you apparently don't think it matters if someone else paid for it. But I'm not that kind of person. Christians aren't going to think like you do. Christians think it DOES MATTER that God paid the price for our sins.

I.E. Free Ride.

You are demonstrating that you disagree with how Christians think. You certainly aren't defining our theology.

Because most Christians don’t think. They keep to the fluffy bits of their holy book and never question it. When confronted with some actual question they usually run and hide or start killing people.

Regarding the definition of free....YOU YOURSELF admit it is a matter of pespective. From someone else's perspective it isn't free. In fact, if it is paid for, by DEFINITION, the thing is not inherently free. Go back to the cheeseburger. Was the cheeseburger free? Kindly withhold your personal perspective, and answer the question objectively? Was the cheeseburger free? No, not if someone paid for it.

Yes, the cheeseburger was free to me.
So stating that ‘eternal forgiveness’ is free is valid or the token payment.

It isn't a token if it's the most important thing that matters in the end. Agreed? Let's see if I can get you to agree with a hypothetical. If, hypothetically speaking, it is the most important thing in the end, can you really call it a token? Feel free to use your dictionary for that one.

Yes it remains a token payment. Do you have to give up something for it? Do you have to change your life for it? Can you do it on your death bed or just before your car goes over a cliff? Token payment.

Just as there are thousands of descriptions of Heaven and Hell, there are thousands of descriptions of Purgatory.

Not in the bible.

(For clarification purposes, do you limit yourself to the Bible in your beliefs?)

No, but for purposes of discussion you must have a common basis. Once you start adding and subtracting from the foundation you must re-establish that basis. At this point we don’t have a common basis.

Since you add and subtract from your holy book, how do you determine which parts are good or bad? How do you decided what parts are literal, figurative or symbolic? What about parts that were, in the past, considered literal but are now considered symbolic?

KingMerv00

"...GOD PAID THE PRICE ..."

By torturing his son?

Seems kinda unnecessary.

That’s another thing that annoys me about Christianity.

God paid the price, to whom and for what? Original sin? What sin when the two people didn’t know it was a sin nor what the consequences would be. Up until that time they had no knowledge of good or evil or even a concept of death.

Whom did he pay, himself. Isn’t death and hell his own punishment for them disobeying him, wouldn’t normal forgiveness have worked?

God punishes everyone for the actions of two people.
Should a child go to prison because the parent committed a crime, what about a grandchild?

Ossai

 

[Mr Clingford]

"...GOD PAID THE PRICE ..."

By torturing his son?

Seems kinda unnecessary.

Remember, Merv, that the son is God too according to trinitarian theology although that point may get lost a bit with the horrible Penal Substitution Theory that fundamentalists are taught.

 

[Ossai]

Mr Clingford

Remember, Merv, that the son is God too according to trinitarian theology although that point may get lost a bit with the horrible Penal Substitution Theory that fundamentalists are taught.

Which means that god sacrificed (but he really didn’t give up anything so it wasn’t much of a sacrifice) god to god so that god would forgive people and they wouldn’t suffer god’s unjust punishment.

Ossai

 

[Mr Clingford]

Mr Clingford
Which means that god sacrificed (but he really didn’t give up anything so it wasn’t much of a sacrifice) god to god so that god would forgive people and they wouldn’t suffer god’s unjust punishment.

Ossai

Penal Sunstitution Theory is indeed something like that. Although giving up one's life as Jesus did isn't too pleasant, I would think.

 

[Ossai]

Mr Clingford

Penal Sunstitution Theory is indeed something like that. Although giving up one's life as Jesus did isn't too pleasant, I would think.

But not exactly uncommon, at that time.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Mr Clingford
But not exactly uncommon, at that time.

and therefore... what?

 

[Belle]

and therefore... what?

And therefore, what's so special about it?

Aside from the fact that the bible is full of contradictions...

Aside from the fact that many of the translations aren't correct...

Aside from the fact that the largest chuch makes its own rules and appoints its own "unerring" human for life to make up MORE rules...

How can intelligent, thinking people be so blindly needy (and at the same time egotistical) to believe that any being as powerful as they make their God out to be would even bother with their petty squabbles, racism, wars and mundane fears - let alone care so deeply that he allowed his son (or himself, if you must) to die for our sins?

This is not something to be proud of or grateful for - it is simply absurd!

But... that won't stop you - and while you live you'll bask in the sunshine of your "rightness"...

Know what's unfair? You think you'll have the opportunity to tell people like me, "See? I was right!" Whereas I can only smile knowing that's not gonna happen...

 

[Mr Clingford]

Why, hello Belle. I hope you feel a good rush after typing that because I enjoyed that splurge.

And therefore, what's so special about it?

In Xtian thinking it is because of the importance of who died

Aside from the fact that the bible is full of contradictions...

Yes, so?

Aside from the fact that many of the translations aren't correct...

Here and there yes, so?

Aside from the fact that the largest chuch makes its own rules and appoints its own "unerring" human for life to make up MORE rules...

I'm not sure what points you are trying to make here.

How can intelligent, thinking people be so blindly needy (and at the same time egotistical) to believe that any being as powerful as they make their God out to be would even bother with their petty squabbles, racism, wars and mundane fears - let alone care so deeply that he allowed his son (or himself, if you must) to die for our sins?

In Xtian thinking it is because God created us to relate to us so he is therefore very interested in us which is very far from saying 'God is on our side'.

This is not something to be proud of or grateful for - it is simply absurd!

But... that won't stop you - and while you live you'll bask in the sunshine of your "rightness"...

Know what's unfair? You think you'll have the opportunity to tell people like me, "See? I was right!" Whereas I can only smile knowing that's not gonna happen...

Hmm, you say you know you are right; you are more confident in your beliefs than I am, then. If you read some of my other posts you will discover you have picked on the wrong Xtian. Although, perhaps, after you have died still atheist, in heaven I will turn to you and say "See? I was right!"