Question for Christians - #3

[Kitty Chan]

God certainly winces at the torture on earth thats something overlooked (see what I said earlier in this thread) This is why we are to do what we can to ease suffering etc. There is a reason the bible mentions Gods judgements. At a point in time God will say we have had enough chances and time to put what we can right and then He will take care of things just like people seem to complain he should do.

Yes, my answers presume the bible is the Word of God or divenely inspired. Just answering (a) in my words and (b) as the source as per the question of how I knew.

You say that if the bible is the Word of God then there are horrible consequences and how do we differenciate between the divine and the mundane.

So Im on the same page;

Please give a example of a horrible consequence

Mundane maybe traditions of the times?

The bible mentions alot of things, I said the heirs of God above, this would be divine perhaps is this what you mean?

 

[Ossai]

Kitty Chan

So where would you have God draw the line? If He was to control all aspects of ones life and you would never do anything wrong perhaps you are like a potted plant that sits there and does nothing. Which is not what God intended.

How do you know what god intended? By making that statement you’ve just declared that you, at least in part, understand god.

We were created to be the sons and daughers of God. Thats why preachers say the "family" of God. Also, to watch over and take care of one another and the earth.

The preachers get their information from where?
Referencing buybull verses is meaningless. But if you want to play that – then explain the ones where god creates people just to condemn them to hell, or how about the ones where god sends falsehoods to keep people from accepting him?

Christians have two choices:
1. Keep god omni- and never declare knowledge of anything, including plans, rules, etc. Basically just do what they want and declare that god really wants it as well, pretty much what most of them do now.
2. Drop the omni- bit. It would solve quiet a few problems.

Now, these are all personal to one. What about evil like the holocaust. God did stop it. He stopped it through good people realising that we were made in the image of God and not the image of a master race invented by Hitler and stopped him.

This is the same trip that people spout when one person survives a bus crash (or any other large disaster) god was looking out for that person, or god works in mysterious ways. The holocaust was perpetuated by people and eventually stopped by people.

Ossai

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

That's another one. The Bible. If the Bible is indeed the "word of God", how do you explain contradictory and incorrect information. There are hundreds of examples of this .

 

[Mr Clingford]

That's another one. The Bible. If the Bible is indeed the "word of God", how do you explain contradictory and incorrect information. There are hundreds of examples of this .

Well, what do you mean by the phrase "word of God"?

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

I think the Bible is a badly written series of folk tales and grand exaggerations made up by adherents of that faith.

Most Biblical literalist's think that it was the "Hand O' God " that wrote it thru surrogates.

I guess that's what I mean.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Most Biblical literalist's think that it was the "Hand O' God " that wrote it thru surrogates.

I guess that's what I mean.

Then the hand of God was a bit wobbly that day!

On the other hand (sorry), there are Christian ways of viewing the Bible other than literal, inerrant ways.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Kitty Chan
How do you know what god intended? By making that statement you’ve just declared that you, at least in part, understand god.

The preachers get their information from where?

I answered earlier in thread.

Referencing buybull verses is meaningless. But if you want to play that – then explain the ones where god creates people just to condemn them to hell, or how about the ones where god sends falsehoods to keep people from accepting him?

God didnt create people to send them to hell it's His intention that everyone should be with Him. But some choose not to. I believe with the falsehoods you are referring to people with hard hearts and those have already choosen not to believe God so really they are only getting their choice. Also see that earlier thread

Christians have two choices:
1. Keep god omni- and never declare knowledge of anything, including plans, rules, etc. Basically just do what they want and declare that god really wants it as well, pretty much what most of them do now.
2. Drop the omni- bit. It would solve quiet a few problems.

If God was not omni then He wouldnt be God. I dont know what knowledge you are referring to. Do you have a for instance?

The holocaust was perpetuated by people and eventually stopped by people.

I wouldnt be so quick to say everyone jumped to help as they didnt. Conscience won them over to help and when the Master Plan of Hitler to create images of a perfect race were revealed then the reality hit home. Hitler was thought to be a ok guy originally.


Ossai

 

[Kitty Chan]

That's another one. The Bible. If the Bible is indeed the "word of God", how do you explain contradictory and incorrect information. There are hundreds of examples of this .

The contradictions is probably another thread, but like you said there is a ton of books on the subject I havnt found anything astounding in contradictions to date if one searches them out.

Heres a interesting thing that may not be known, did you know the Word is Christ?

 

[SezMe]

Yes, my answers presume the bible is the Word of God or divenely inspired. Just answering (a) in my words and (b) as the source as per the question of how I knew.

You say that if the bible is the Word of God then there are horrible consequences and how do we differenciate between the divine and the mundane.

So Im on the same page;

Please give a example of a horrible consequence

Sorry for the delayed response.

You accept that the bible is the word of god. I appreciate the clarity. Here is just one "horrible" consequence of that. Taking the bible as god's word, god not only established the ten commandments, he also established the penalities for violation of them. Fair enough. The penalty for disobeying your parents is death by stoning. That seems pretty horrible to me. Has there ever been a kid (except mine, of course who did not rebel against his parents? Kids must rebel as a part of growing up. But should they then be stoned to death for doing so?

ETA: Dumb typos.

 

[Ossai]

Sorry it took so long to reply but this thread fell off the first page.

Kitty Chan

God didnt create people to send them to hell it's His intention that everyone should be with Him. But some choose not to. I believe with the falsehoods you are referring to people with hard hearts and those have already choosen not to believe God so really they are only getting their choice. Also see that earlier thread

Not according to the bible

Jude 1:4 “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
And


Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Christians have two choices:
1. Keep god omni- and never declare knowledge of anything, including plans, rules, etc. Basically just do what they want and declare that god really wants it as well, pretty much what most of them do now.
2. Drop the omni- bit. It would solve quiet a few problems.

If God was not omni then He wouldnt be God. I dont know what knowledge you are referring to. Do you have a for instance?

If god is omni- then god already knows everything and controls everything. People can’t do anything that god hasn’t already determined/witnessed/created/etc. People are then just actors on the stage of life playing their parts. The actors may believe they’re doing what they want (i.e. have freewill) but they can’t actually deviate from the script which god wrote.

Why did you say that god had to be omnipotent? Is that a requirement listed somewhere? Even in the bible god has problems and difficulties which would indicate that at least the OT version wasn’t omnipotent.

Ossai

 

[elliotfc]

If I understand Christian doctrine correctly, God endows man with free will, and then holds him accountable for his choices.

Yes, I think that just about every Christian would agree with that. Some (like me) would temper that explanation, perhaps call it a bit too simplistic, even if it is essentially correct. I think that God takes every conceivable factor into account. My choice not to, or to, steal food from the grocery store is not equivalent to a poor person's choice not tom, or to, steal food from a grocery store. In addition, I feel that RECONCILIATION has to be a part of this understanding. Accountablity includes not just punishment/reward, but a possibility for understanding and healing.

But if God is All-Powerful, surely He is able to foresee the choices everyone will make.

This assumes that he wants to forsee all of the choices everyone will make, or that he does forsee all of the choices that everyone will make. I suspect that you have a different opinion of "omniscience" or "omnipotence" than I, or Christians like myself. God's ability to do something doesn't mean that he does it, that he is interested in doing it, or that he is compelled to do it.

If He's able to do that, then He knows every choice that each individual will make when he is created.

You're assuming that God is interested in all of that at the moment of creation. If God considers us as we are, and not as what we will be, your point is either irrelevant or false.

Second, I don't know if God does in fact no every choice that each individual will make. I think there are a variety of Christian sentiments on this point.

That being the case, how can He hold everyone accountable with rewards and punishments, when there was no doubt about the outcome from the beginning?

Because rewards and punishments are not contingent upon the outcomes of temporal events! The reward is communion with God, and that can not be had by earthly merit. The punishment can be avoided by the greatest sinner if he repents and (in my opinion) goes through a purgation/learning process.

See, most Christians believe that it is not the outcomes of temporal choices/events that result in reward/punishment, but either the embracing of a creed/belief, a repenting of sins, a purgatory process, etc., that has eternal impact.

That isn't saying that temporal outcomes are irrelevant or meaningless. Rather, they are relevant and meaningful, but only as far as they impact us in our path toward God, or away from God.

Or do you want to claim that God is NOT All-Knowing? Then does that mean that He is imperfect?

I'm not sure how relevant his knowledge is to what appears to be the accountability question. Free will means that creatures with free will make free choices. If God knows all of these choices, that doesn't mean that they weren't freely made.

God may be imperfect in your opinion. To a believing Christian, God is perfect. If we are not content with God's perfection, that's our problem, not God's. What God is, is perfection, and if you don't think that to be perfection, you can take it up with God eventually. We Christians do our best to understand and explain God's perfection. We accept it as an article of faith, and frankly aren't all that bothered when non-Christians standards of perfection define our God to be non-perfect. Why should non-believers have the power to define God's perfection? If they had that power, God would not be God, but would be a contingency.

If you are comparing a God that you don't believe in to your objective standard of perfection, you are indicating that you *could* believe in a God, but you can't believe in the Christian God, because your understanding of the Christian God proves him to be imperfect. May I suggest that your understanding of the Christian God is imperfect? If all God cared about was outcomes, there would be no reason for Jesus. The outcomes of free will and choices would determine salvation or damnation. But with the Incarnation, that isn't the case. I think you're missing the point with your questions here. If you want to divorce Jesus/reconciliation/forgiveness from all of this, then you aren't talking about the Christian God at all.

-Elliot

 

[Richard G]

No creature under Gods creation will enter into eternity without making a concious decision to accept him as Lord, and keep his commandments, or to reject him, and live in rebelion.

God does not force himself on anyone. Each persons decision is his own to make, independent of God.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Sorry it took so long to reply but this thread fell off the first page.
Not according to the bible

Jude 1:4 “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
And

Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Reply from Kitty
Well we all get busy

As for the 1st one its referring to ungodly men whom are not interested in God.

The 2nd one is more about predestinate, its speaking firstly about Jesus It is saying that God would begin a work in you but not abandon you but see it through. That we would conform or simply put try to be like Jesus the first born. Then Romans finishes off by saying that nothing around can separate us from Gods love.

Originally posted by Kitty
If God was not omni then He wouldnt be God. I dont know what knowledge you are referring to. Do you have a for instance?

Ossai
If god is omni- then god already knows everything and controls everything. People can’t do anything that god hasn’t already determined/witnessed/created/etc. People are then just actors on the stage of life playing their parts. The actors may believe they’re doing what they want (i.e. have freewill) but they can’t actually deviate from the script which god wrote.

Why did you say that god had to be omnipotent? Is that a requirement listed somewhere? Even in the bible god has problems and difficulties which would indicate that at least the OT version wasn’t omnipotent.
[/QUOTE]

Try a parent, who through life has gained some wisdom. They watch the child struggle and know what will happen if the child continues but allows the child to find out for themselves. The parent could control but does not. the more struborn a child the more the parent has to let the child learn on their own. (Doesnt mean the parent isnt chewing the nails in the meantime

(elliot added some about free will so I wont)

As for God watching and us actors. This is why God is probably blamed for a murderer. Because God should have stopped it. So that makes God bad not the murderer. The murderer chose the action and is responsible, not God. If God stopped it then Gods interfering with free will. We are free to love or kill. If we are forced to love it is a empty love, how many books have been written about false love and how unfulfillling it is. We must choose love.

No, we are responsible for our own actions and cannot place blame on God or the devil for making us do anything.

omni - try looking at it from another angle.

You are sitting at your computer reading this at this moment. yesterday is gone, this morning is gone. Tommorow is coming and so is summer. You and I are slaves to time and we mark our lives with it.

Jesus said not to worry about yesterday for it is gone, Tommorow has enough troubles think about today.

God is not a slave to time, He is not confined to it like we are. God is outside the time line we follow. All the days are now to Him. Where they are yesterday, today and tommorow for us.

 

[Ossai]

Elliotfc

I suspect that you have a different opinion of "omniscience" or "omnipotence" than I, or Christians like myself.

No opinion necessary when you bother to use the actual definition.

God's ability to do something doesn't mean that he does it, that he is interested in doing it, or that he is compelled to do it.

Yet the bible states that he wants to do it, does it and has done it (predestination that is) for everyone (or at least all those already saved by grace or destined for hell).

You're assuming that God is interested in all of that at the moment of creation. If God considers us as we are, and not as what we will be, your point is either irrelevant or false.

Not false or irrelevant, just repeating what’s in the bible.

Second, I don't know if God does in fact no every choice that each individual will make. I think there are a variety of Christian sentiments on this point.

Basically – remove the omni- bit.

If God knows all of these choices, that doesn't mean that they weren't freely made.

If god knows person A will make choice X, can person A choose not X?
If you answer ‘yes’ then god’s knowledge wasn’t perfect.
If you answer ‘no’ then person A does not have a choice, just the illusion of one.

May I suggest that your understanding of the Christian God is imperfect? If all God cared about was outcomes, there would be no reason for Jesus. The outcomes of free will and choices would determine salvation or damnation. But with the Incarnation, that isn't the case.

A restatement of what you just said. My choices in life are meaningless, therefore I’m not responsible for the harm I do to myself or others. I’ve got a free pass to heaven, and forgiveness, as long as I ask Jesus for it.

Richard G

God does not force himself on anyone. Each persons decision is his own to make, independent of God.

Not according to the text of the bible.

Kitty Chan

As for the 1st one its referring to ungodly men whom are not interested in God.

Because they aren’t allow to be interested in god.

The 2nd one is more about predestinate, its speaking firstly about Jesus It is saying that God would begin a work in you but not abandon you but see it through. That we would conform or simply put try to be like Jesus the first born. Then Romans finishes off by saying that nothing around can separate us from Gods love.

Nope, go back and read Romans 8 again. It starts off talking about Jesus and Jesus interceding, but it brings in those that follow Jesus and how they were predestined to do so.

God is not a slave to time, He is not confined to it like we are. God is outside the time line we follow. All the days are now to Him. Where they are yesterday, today and tommorow for us.

You aren’t saying anything that isn’t already covered under omnipotent.

The murderer chose the action and is responsible, not God.

The murderer was just playing their part. Look at the person A example above.

Ossai

 

[Dr Adequate]

God didnt create people to send them to hell it's His intention that everyone should be with Him.

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. --- Proverbs 16:4

Hmm... who to believe...?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Re: Re: Question for Christians - #3

When people ask why isnt God swooping down from the sky and stopping whatever, God's answer is I am doing something I put you there to do it.

So, God creates childhood leukemia to torture children to death with, but the world is full of good, decent people who would rather die than do anything one tenth as cruel, some of whom are trying to find a cure. And since God put them there their aspirations and efforts for good should be counted as his, whereas his efforts for evil should be blamed on... the wickedness of man, if I remember my theology.

Wow. Wow. Wow.

I see the light. And it's indistinguishable from darkness, because black is white, and the good that men do is to be attributed to God, and the evil that God does is to be attributed to men, and a filthy torturing sadist is fit to be worshipped as the Highest.

 

[elliotfc]

Elliotfc
No opinion necessary when you bother to use the actual definition.

Sure an opinion is necessary, which is why you offer yours and I offer mine.

You are saying that God MUST follow the dictionary definition of omnipotence/omniscience (actually I'd say that you want God to act omnipotently/omnsciently as you would understand those two words, but I won't quibble that point) and I say that is nonsense. God is not contingent on definitions that humans construct. He is not compelled to follow the Dictionary.

If you think that God has to follow the Dictionary, then you believe that the Dictionary is actually God, and that God is a contingency.

Definitions of concepts are nice. Omnipotence, if it exists, would exist fully (or exist at all) only in God. So what God is would be the actual NON-HUMAN-CONCEPTUAL existence of omnipotence/omniscience. And I'll take that for what it is, and not what you or me or anyone else would have it to be.

More later.

-Elliot

 

[Eleatic Stranger]

You are saying that God MUST follow the dictionary definition of omnipotence/omniscience (actually I'd say that you want God to act omnipotently/omnsciently as you would understand those two words, but I won't quibble that point) and I say that is nonsense. God is not contingent on definitions that humans construct. He is not compelled to follow the Dictionary.

I doubt that's exactly what he's saying - certainly God doesn't have to follow the dictionary definition of omnipotence/omniscience/etc, but God does have to fulfill the criteria in that definition for those terms to apply to him.

Again, I think what's happening here is a confusion of language and metaphysics. Certainly if God is omnipotent than certain things will be true of him (based on the criteria in the definition), but that isn't a constraint on God - it's a constraint on us, and how we apply the term omnipotent to things.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Ossai
Because they aren’t allow to be interested in god.

They did know God because it says they turned the Grace of God, it doesnt apply to what your trying to say, thats all

Originally posted by Ossai
Nope, go back and read Romans 8 again. It starts off talking about Jesus and Jesus interceding, but it brings in those that follow Jesus and how they were predestined to do so.

I did answer what you say, I did read Romans you have it correct about Jesus being first but then your not quite understanding the next part.

Romans says we could conform to or as I said simply put try to be like Jesus whom is the first born. And states that God would not start a work in you to abandon you He would stay and near the end it finished off by saying that nothing can separate us from Gods love. Its not saying as you say about everyone is predestined.

I said:

God is not a slave to time, He is not confined to it like we are. God is outside the time line we follow. All the days are now to Him. Where they are yesterday, today and tommorow for us.

You said:

You aren’t saying anything that isn’t already covered under omnipotent.

Exactly, God is not tied to time as we are. He sees as you do it, so how can He be writing your next move?

same with the murderer.

Last point if God was writing our moves then He would be responsible. If one thought that they were a puppet then of course one would be mad at God. And of course God looks like a sadist because He could write happiness into everyone.

Now, if God is not writing ones next move then they are responsible for their own moves and the results of those moves. This is where most people dont want to be, responsible. Its better to blame God than take blame themselves for their own actions.

God said heres your life, heres the instructions, you can follow or make up your own, your choice. Just like a parent raises a child and eventually has to let go and see how a child does.

 

[Riddick]

If I understand Christian doctrine correctly, God endows man with free will, and then holds him accountable for his choices. But if God is All-Powerful, surely He is able to foresee the choices everyone will make. If He's able to do that, then He knows every choice that each individual will make when he is created. That being the case, how can He hold everyone accountable with rewards and punishments, when there was no doubt about the outcome from the beginning? Or do you want to claim that God is NOT All-Knowing? Then does that mean that He is imperfect?

So then, it comes down to either 1) not create you at all or 2) create you, knowing what your choices will be.

If you have made your choice, and you are happy with your choice, what is wrong with that?

I'm sure God does intervene for us, more often than we are aware of. It is my thinking, that he will intervene for many people, even those that didn't accept him, in the end. There's a text "whatsoever you have done for the least, you have also done for me." which should provide a gigantic loophole in the end.