Question for astronomers, nebula - light emission

Why do red giants swell? I read that a red giant occurs when a star runs out of hydrogen for hydrogen fusion and begins to fuse helium. Is the fusion of helium a more energetic than the fusion of hydrogen? If the star swells and begins to shed it's outer shell, then the energy of the fusion of helium must be much greater than the gravitational force holding the star together, correct?
 
The fusion of helium is less energetic than the fusion of hydrogen. But in later stages of the stars life hydrogen fusion occurs in upper layers of the star and that is what causes the expansion of the star. It sounds a bit paradoxical, the core is collapsing, the outer shells are expanding.
 
Whether or not a cloud will collapse is determined by three factors: radius, temperature and density. The formula for figuring it out exactly is the "Jean's length" formula. Temperature determines the velocity of particles in the cloud and if they are below the clouds escape velocity they are stuck there. Density determines the gravity field and escape velocity.

If a cloud is below it's Jean's length then it isn't big enough to collapse. If it's above it's Jean length it will collapse and fragment into multiple clouds as it collapses.

Clouds which will collapse are usually very cool which means they don't emit much light. Cloud collapse is pretty straight forward until the point where the cloud becomes so dense that it can't radiate away the heat generated by collapse effectively.

I'd have to look it up but I'd think the nebula mentioned in the OP are too hot to collapse. The two star forming regions are almost guaranteed to be at the point where they can't radiate away heat effectively.


Cool , thanks.
 
The fusion of helium is less energetic than the fusion of hydrogen. But in later stages of the stars life hydrogen fusion occurs in upper layers of the star and that is what causes the expansion of the star. It sounds a bit paradoxical, the core is collapsing, the outer shells are expanding.

Unless the total mass is above a certain threshold, right? Then you get la puta negra. :eek:
 
Whoa. Check this out. Answers a lot of my questions. I didn't know that the material ejected from a red giant could form new stars. Cool stuff. :cool:

Which is lucky really, because if it didn't we wouldn't have all these heavy elements helpfully lying around the place.

Unless the total mass is above a certain threshold, right? Then you get la puta negra. :eek:

No. Pretty much all main sequence stars go through a stage like this, regardless of mass. The big differences between different mass stars happen later, depending on what elements undergo fusion. The actual process looks fairly similar at each stage. First, the fuel is burnt normally in the core. Once this starts running out, the fusion moves closer to the surface and the outer layers expand due to the heating, while the core contracts since it is no longer being heated. The outer layers burn out and fade, usually being lost from the star and forming part of a planetary nebula (which actually has nothing to do with planets at all). As the core contracts, it heats up and, depending on the mass of the star, fusion of heavier elements can begin, at which point the whole cycle starts again, but with a different fuel.

Very light stars will only burn hydrogen and then die. Heavier stars, from a fraction of the Sun's weight to a bit heavier than it, are massive enough to start helium fusion as a second stage, but will probably stop after that. More massive stars can go through several stages of fusion, expansion and then contraction, with each successive stage lasting less time. It is usually a little more complex than this, since there can be several stages taking place at the same time, with the star a bit like an onion with each layer burning a different element.

Eventually they will reach the stage where iron is produced. Iron is the turning point between fusion and fission, no energy is produced by fusing iron or any heavier element. This means that when the core starts contracing, there is no fusion producing an opposing pressure and the core can collapse very rapidly. The exact mechanisms are rather complicated, but the collapsing matter essentially bounces off a central core and rebounds as a big explosion, a type II supernova, which blows everything outside the core into space while leaving behind a very dense core, usually a neutron star.

This site and this Wiki article have some nice stuff about this.
 
Thanks for the summary, Cuddles. Lot's of interesting stuff I've never heard before. So what are the circumstances that cause a black hole, or is that still up for debate?
 
Thanks for the summary, Cuddles. Lot's of interesting stuff I've never heard before. So what are the circumstances that cause a black hole, or is that still up for debate?

Basically the same, only more so. In a burning star, the gravitational attraction is balanced by the heat and photon pressure from the reactions. When fusion stops, this pressure is gone, so the star collapses. When this happens there are several possibilities, depending on how massive the star is, and therefore how strong the gravitational force is.

For fairly light stars, like the Sun, there isn't all that much gravity (relatively speaking). The Fermi exclusion principle says that a certain class of particles (fermions) cannot exist in the same place as each other. This includes most fundamental particles, including electrons. This means that when the star collapses it reaches a point where it can't go any further without forcing electrons into the same place, and therefore it can't collapse any further. This results in a white dwarf, which is composed of normal matter but has no internal reactions and will slowly cool down and fade until it is just a dead lump.

If a star is heavier, the gravitational attraction is enough to overcome the repulsion. The star can collapse further, forcing the electrons to combine with protons, forming neutrons. This results in a body made up almost entirely of neutrons, which are held apart by a similar exclusion principle.

If the star is even heavier than this, even the pressure from the neutrons can't stop the gravitational collapse. Since escape velocity depends on the density of an object, as the collapse progresses it will reach a point where the escape velocity within a certain radius is greater than the speed of light, and we have a black hole. There are countless theories about what excatly happens after this point is reached and what really happens to the matter inside, but at the moment it is essentially impossible to tell.

There is also a recent theory that there is a stage in between neutron stars and black holes where the neutrons are broken down to their component quarks and gluons and reach an equilibrium before a black hole is formed. This seems a reasonable theory, but has very little experimental support at the moment. A few objects have been identified as possible quark stars, but further study is required, and I believe at least one has been shown to be just a neutron star.
 
There is also a recent theory that there is a stage in between neutron stars and black holes where the neutrons are broken down to their component quarks and gluons and reach an equilibrium before a black hole is formed. This seems a reasonable theory, but has very little experimental support at the moment.

No problem. We'll just scale it down a bit and run some experiments. I'll go get a chunk of lead, you get the vise clamp....:D
 
Bruce, I highly recommend you watch the PBS series "Cosmos", or at least read the book. Some of the science is out of date but it contains a basic overview of many of the issues you have raised.
 
Well, I think they were working closely together at the time. They were working on the "Fermi-Dirac statistics" of fermions at about the same time.
 

Back
Top Bottom