Question about the supernatural act

Aster said:

Very interesting. I also read this at a website: "James Randi, at the end of the show, seemed genuinely interested and invited the man to take on the JREF’s $1m challenge. I hope he agrees, because I’d like to see more." read this
Rgds.,
Aster.

Yes, I seem to recall Randi saying that the guy could apply. But of course, this chap claims to be able to make predictions regularly, so it is possible that a challenge could be designed for him. He could not submit one of his predictions which is deemed to have already come true.
 
thaiboxerken

You must rule out all the mundane explanations before entertaining the paranormal ones.

1. You are fabricating the dream and the story. IE.. you are a liar.

This one can be ruled out because in the example I presented, this is true, not fabricated. Why would I offer a fabrication to support my explanation ?

2. You read about the kid and dog in the papers and you retroactively placed these events in your memory of the strange dream. For instance, the dog and kid in your original dream were completely different in appearance in manner in your dream until the moment you read the paper.. in which your dream dog and kid became the real ones.

This can also be ruled out because what's in the papers is true. You were walking the dog and that dog saved a child from drowning.

3. It's just a coincidence.

Now... this is what remains. People will tell you, it's a coïncidence. And you know, from the heart of the experience, it is not.

Next time you have a dream that you think might be a premonition, announce and document it with details BEFORE it comes true. Prophecies told AFTER they happen aren't impressive in the slightest.

Communication error. This was supposed to be just an example. It is not a dream of my own, or yours, or anyone elses.

Rgds.,
Aster.
 
Aster said:


And what do YOU know ?

I only know what you've told us. That is that #1, you are not a professional pyschologist or psychiatrist. #2, you perform therapy on people using techniques that only professional psychologists and psychiatrists should use.

In short, you are a quack.
 
Re: thaiboxerken

This one can be ruled out because in the example I presented, this is true, not fabricated. Why would I offer a fabrication to support my explanation ?

It wouldn't be a good lie if you admitted that it was a lie. I am not saying that you necessarily lied about this story, but how are we to be sure? Why would you lie? There are plenty of reason. Many believers lie and fabricate stories to make themselves seem superior to other people. Many lie to convince people in their beliefs. Some lie so that they can get people to believe that they are psychic. Simply saying that you are not fabricating the story isn't good enough to rule it out.

This can also be ruled out because what's in the papers is true. You were walking the dog and that dog saved a child from drowning.

No, I'm saying that your brain may have retroactively made the true story in the paper fit into your memory of a dream. You still haven't ruled it out. Also, why do you keep referring to yourself in the second person? I did not have any such dreams.


Now... this is what remains. People will tell you, it's a coïncidence. And you know, from the heart of the experience, it is not.


Again, you talk about your own opinions in the second person. Why don't you speak for yourself and not me? I have seen NO evidence to suggest that this is not a coincidence. You are admitting that you simply have a need to believe it's not coincidence, even though you have no supportive evidence.


Communication error. This was supposed to be just an example. It is not a dream of my own, or yours, or anyone elses.

Fictional examples do not help your case. Let's talk about real events and happenings. In the world of fiction, anything can happen. In the real world, there isn't evidence of the supernatural.
 
you perform therapy on people using techniques that only professional psychologists and psychiatrists should use.
You are ignorent and from ignorence you are insulting me with regards to my profession. I urge you to stop this unnescessary behavior. In the Netherlands, hypnotherapy, regression and reïncarnationtherapy and NLP are separate professions and viewed as alternative healing techniques as opposed to psychology and psychiatry. The latter professionals hardly make use the forementioned techniques by the way. So, you may wish to call me a quack, but evidence supports to the fact that I am a certified and registered professional.

Rgds.,
Aster.
 
Fictional examples do not help your case. Let's talk about real events and happenings. In the world of fiction, anything can happen. In the real world, there isn't evidence of the supernatural.
Please, you are reading my post and example wrongly and this causes a misunderstanding. My example is one that is supposed to happen to you (or others). Associate with the person who has the dream and dissociate from yourself, the skeptic. In other words, step into the shoes of someone having a precognitive dream that, some time later, becomes real. If you can do that and have done it, please comment.

Rgds.,
Aster.
 
Aster said:
So, you may wish to call me a quack, but evidence supports to the fact that I am a certified and registered professional.
Certified and registered by whom, may I ask?
 
Aster, coincidences happen all the time. Every now and then a "WTF???" type coincidence comes along. The only difference between you and me, for example, is how we both react to it.
Your reaction ---> :eek:
My reaction ---> :D
 
Certified and registered by whom, may I ask?
Certified by the academy that educated me for four years and registered by the relevant professional association.
Your reaction --->
Thanks for a good laugh. Yes, even after 40 years of experiencing the unexplainable, I am still amazed each and every time about every new occurence that adds to the experience. I just love that unexpected and almost mystical dynamic in life.

Rgds.,
Aster.
 
I am frequently amazed by the sort of guff which is lent an academic sheen when it is studied at some tin-pot institution. In Britain there are many degree courses which have questionable merit to society (Surfing studies and Dog Psychology, for example). It seems the Netherlands is no different in this regard.

Aster, regarding your example with the dog in the dream, you may suggest that someone who experienced that sequence of event would just "know" that they were right. I would not be so arrogant as to assume that my memories of the dream are perfect, or that they exactly correlate to the real life occurence. I would be well aware of the tendency to retro-fit a prediction to suit a theory, something of which I feel you may be guilty.
 

You are ignorent and from ignorence you are insulting me with regards to my profession. I urge you to stop this unnescessary behavior. In the Netherlands, hypnotherapy, regression and reïncarnationtherapy and NLP are separate professions and viewed as alternative healing techniques as opposed to psychology and psychiatry.


Alternative healing techniques = quackery. The reason such techniques are considered alternatives is because they are not proven effective.


The latter professionals hardly make use the forementioned techniques by the way. So, you may wish to call me a quack, but evidence supports to the fact that I am a certified and registered professional.


Certified by what governing body? What MEDICAL association? Quack certifications only mean that you are endorsed by other quacks to perform quackery. There is a reason that psychiatrists and psychologists don't use quackery techniques.. it's because they are trained professionals and tend to use proven and effective methods.
 
Aster said:
In other words, step into the shoes of someone having a precognitive dream that, some time later, becomes real. If you can do that and have done it, please comment.

If such a thing happened to me, I'd go talk to a psychologist or psychiatrist about it. I simply would not believe in it being a supernatural event until I could rule out the 3 things I outlined above. Simply because I "experienced" and event doesn't mean it happened.
 
Alternative healing techniques = quackery. The reason such techniques are considered alternatives is because they are not proven effective.
Have you ever heared so much nonsense... You say that to Milton Erickson and his following. For your information, quackery means nothing else but deceiving or cheating, conning people. That is an insult. Or is it that professionals like me cannot write prescriptions for medicine ? (Which we don't.) Boy, I've never seen so much ignorence embodied in one person.

Rgds.,
Aster.
 
Aster said:
Have you ever heared so much nonsense... You say that to Milton Erickson and his following. For your information, quackery means nothing else but deceiving or cheating, conning people. That is an insult. Or is it that professionals like me cannot write prescriptions for medicine ? (Which we don't.) Boy, I've never seen so much ignorence embodied in one person.
Whoa! Not so fast. It's a fact that "alternative" medicine doesn't work. Because if it did, it wouldn't be alternative. It would be medicine.

You said you've never seen so much ignorance, yet you practise quackery :confused:.

For your information, quackery doesn't mean only deceiving or cheating, conning people. The quack himself can be deluded.
 
Powa said:
For your information, quackery doesn't mean only deceiving or cheating, conning people. The quack himself can be deluded.

This is certainly true. I am sure that lots of people who perform Reiki and the like really think they are having a measurable, physical effect on their subjects, and are generally carried along by the oohs and aahs and the platitudes of the patient who, after all, wants to justify that they have not just wasted their time and money.

I myself dabbled with tarot in my youth, and was easily able to convince myself that the results I was getting were proof of the power of the cards. I could, given the inclination and the relevant marketing, have set myself up to teach this skill to others and even printed little certificates for my graduates. Heck, I could even have put holograms on the certificates, to make them look really impressive.

And tarot is a very old and very easily understood trick. This ideomotor-hoozit-thingie is obviously much grander and offers a greater scope for confusing the unwary. No doubt you could even persuade a respected academic institution to dabble in it for a while. But that in no way testifies to its efficacy.
 
Whoa! Not so fast. It's a fact that "alternative" medicine doesn't work. Because if it did, it wouldn't be alternative. It would be medicine.
No need to put the word alternative in apprentices. When you do that, I get the idea that you doubt that word or don't agree with it or mean to belittle it even more. For the rest, I will leave this discussion for what it is. In my opinion its totally ignorent and moronic.

Rgds.,
Aster.
 
I'm sorry, I should put both words in quotes, like so: "alternative medicine", because it's not even medicine. Why is it called alternative anyway? Can you explain that to the ignorant, moronic, unwashed people of this board?
 
For your information, quackery means nothing else but deceiving or cheating, conning people.
Not in the definition skeptics use of the word. For skeptics it includes techniques that practitioners believe in, but aren't up to the standards of Evidence Based Medicine.

Basically, they define quackery as anything that hasn't been proven scientifically, and they define alternative medicine the same way. It is self evident that they are the same, because the definitions are basically self-referential.

That doesn't mean they don't have a point though: since it is hard to know exactly what someone believes it isn't very practical to differentiate between deliberate frauds and people who believe that the useless things they are selling actually work. Suppose only deliberate fraud is illegal, but selling useless remedies you believe in isn't. It would mean that the deliberate frauds always have the perfect alibi. The only thing they have to do is say that they believe in it and they go free, since belief is very hard to disprove. This is why skeptics don't distinguish between deliberate and honest 'quackery', even though they do recognize that in one case it is a crime and in the other it is someone honestly trying to help.

Instead of having to prove that you really believe in what someone, skeptics just want people to prove that what they are doing actually works. This can be very hard, even for obvious things like pills and powders. But unfortunately for many psychological treatments, it is (almost) impossible: you can't give someone a placebo session that is indistiguishable from a real one and psychological treatments are impossible to 'double blind'. Most experiments in psychotherapy are simply case studies, which is basically 'anecdotal evidence' and nobody can go back and repeat them.

This is why skeptics and scientific psychologists are skeptical of many psychotherapeutical techniques. Only cognitive psychotherapy, which is based on behavourism, and biological (neuro)psychiatry (making people feel better with medication) have scientific approval. And if therapies are based on religious or supernatural concepts, it is hard for them to even consider that there might be something to it. And then there are techniques, like hypnosis, that can easily be used to manipulate how people think and have successfully been used in psychological experiments to implant false memories into people's heads, or make people exhibit false symptoms of non-existing disorders. Skeptics will always consider the possibility that therapists might be doing that, perhaps even unintentionally.

This is a skeptic board, and you will meet people who are skeptical about these things. Don't expect to gain any respect by saying that you have lots of experience or that you are certified by some organization. For skeptics saying that you have experience in homeopathy, acupuncture or the study of leprechauns in the wild is all pretty much the same. You'll just have to show that whatever you are claiming is worth it to consider to be true. If you can't, even though it is not a nice thing to do, they'll consider you fair game for ridicule.

God didn't create skeptics to be nice, you know? He made them to critize you, because you'll learn more from criticism than from anything else.
 
thaiboxerken said:


I only know what you've told us. That is that #1, you are not a professional pyschologist or psychiatrist. #2, you perform therapy on people using techniques that only professional psychologists and psychiatrists should use.

In short, you are a quack.

<table cellspacing=1 cellpadding=4 bgcolor=#cc6666 border=0><tr><td bgcolor=#cc6666><fontface="Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#ffffff size=1>Posted by Hal:</font></td></tr><tr><td bgcolor=white><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=black size=1>This post has been reported for rudeness. I find that while it is potentially insulting, it is also a person simply expressing an opinion. Indeed, there have been barbs traded on both sides of this debate in earlier posts. I remind the reportee that this is an active forum, and that strong words are exchanged. Thick skins are encouraged.

hal
</font></td></tr></table>
 
Man... I should check this thread more often.

And my Reverend Brother has said all that I wanted to say, as well...

:(

I missed on the duck hunting once again...
 

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