Question about dogs for veterinarians or...

[John Bentley]

John

My alternative interpretation would be to say that prostatic Ca that manages to develop in the absence of androgen support would, by definition, be nastier disease because the cells are proliferating without one of their major controls on development. So I would suspect that a referral centre receiving nastier cases would be likely to have castrates over-represented in that cohort.

The same is true of perianal masses in the castrate and the bitch- more uncommon than in entire males but nasty when it occurs.

To answer the question you would need a better study of the true incidences in the general population not a referral cohort already showing bad disease before you could say that the casrtates actually get more Ca per 100,000 dogs.

Yes, I have that same interpretation. As I remember it, prostatic cancer was much more common in the un-neutered male, but when it did occur in the neutered male, it was much more likely to be malignant. However, at our referral center at Auburn University, we saw many more un-neutered males than otherwise. Most of the prostatic biopsies I performed in those dogs showed cancer, but I never worked up any statistics myself.

Thanks for prodding my recalcitrant engrams, they are starting to calcify I think.

 

[Fat Bottom Gurl]

A compilation of articles on early S/N can be found here:

http://www.spayusa.org/main_directory/04-sterilization_methods/sn_articles/


D

 

[Fat Bottom Gurl]

Yes, I have that same interpretation. As I remember it, prostatic cancer was much more common in the un-neutered male, but when it did occur in the neutered male, it was much more likely to be malignant. However, at our referral center at Auburn University, we saw many more un-neutered males than otherwise. Most of the prostatic biopsies I performed in those dogs showed cancer, but I never worked up any statistics myself.

Thanks for prodding my recalcitrant engrams, they are starting to calcify I think.

John:

One of my pups was early S/N at 12 weeks (the owner being a vet student). He developed malignant prostatic cancer and died at 4 years of age. He also had UAP of one elbow - don't know if that is significant.

Deb

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

John:

One of my pups was early S/N at 12 weeks (the owner being a vet student). He developed malignant prostatic cancer and died at 4 years of age. He also had UAP of one elbow - don't know if that is significant.

Deb

As we have been discussing, what would be required is a controlled set of observations not individual cases. So, it is a sad story but no conclusion can be drawn from it.

 

[John Bentley]

John:

One of my pups was early S/N at 12 weeks (the owner being a vet student). He developed malignant prostatic cancer and died at 4 years of age. He also had UAP of one elbow - don't know if that is significant.

Deb

The UAP would not be correlated with the prostatic cancer, if that's what you are asking. I doubt seriously that the early neuter induced prostatic disease. As BSM says, you can't draw any conclusions from 1 case.

Of the abstracts you provided links for (thanks for that), the best one appears to have been done recently (2004). Decent numbers and long term follow up. However, without the entire study, it is kind of hard to interpret. No mention of specific problems except urinary incontinence and cystitis in females. I'll have to dig out a copy of JAVMA and read it. See what diseases were or weren't correlated and at what age.

I've been disappointed in JAVMA the last few years, as it has turned into a way for residents to meet their publishing requirements without much real content. It has even allowed homeopathy articles to slip in every now and then. I stopped reading it consistently because of these problems, and I tend to look at some of the articles closely if they go against what I think I know already.

 

[Fat Bottom Gurl]

The UAP would not be correlated with the prostatic cancer, if that's what you are asking. I doubt seriously that the early neuter induced prostatic disease. As BSM says, you can't draw any conclusions from 1 case.

Of the abstracts you provided links for (thanks for that), the best one appears to have been done recently (2004). Decent numbers and long term follow up. However, without the entire study, it is kind of hard to interpret. No mention of specific problems except urinary incontinence and cystitis in females. I'll have to dig out a copy of JAVMA and read it. See what diseases were or weren't correlated and at what age.

I've been disappointed in JAVMA the last few years, as it has turned into a way for residents to meet their publishing requirements without much real content. It has even allowed homeopathy articles to slip in every now and then. I stopped reading it consistently because of these problems, and I tend to look at some of the articles closely if they go against what I think I know already.

I realize one cannot draw conclusions based on one dog - I was just giving an example of an early neutered dog that did develop malignant prostatic cancer. As for the UAP - I was just wondering if delay of closure of growth plates has any correlation to deformities of the elbow. Also, one of the studies on early S/N with relationship to Rotties demonstrated an increase in osteosarcoma...(presently, I cannot find the link).

Deb

 

[Ohmer]

For cats we do everything at 5-6mths and regard it as a really bad thing to let females reach puberty- the uterus is horrible to handle at surgery and a lot of them get pregnant as soon as they get the chance because they are irresponsible sluts who never listen to safe sex advice.

Can't resist...

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=cat-sex

 

[John Bentley]

I realize one cannot draw conclusions based on one dog - I was just giving an example of an early neutered dog that did develop malignant prostatic cancer. As for the UAP - I was just wondering if delay of closure of growth plates has any correlation to deformities of the elbow. Also, one of the studies on early S/N with relationship to Rotties demonstrated an increase in osteosarcoma...(presently, I cannot find the link).

Deb

Sorry, didn't mean to patronize. Comes from having lots of kids and not enough adult conversation.

Don't know if there is any correlation between UAP and delayed closure. Wouldn't be surprised if that were true, but it might be kind of hard to pin down. Wow, all kinds of research opportunities here. The problem, at least in veterinary medicine, is that most of the research I see is very short term stuff because of the need to "publish or perish", or is very superficial drek because it is simply done to meet the requirements for a residency.

My research project for my master's took 2 years to complete, and I was considered "daring" because it was such a "long term" project.

 

[John Bentley]

Can't resist...

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=cat-sex

That is truly sicko. Peta never disappoints for weirdness.