Quebec Separation

[drkitten]

Yes, some companies do it by choice, but part of that reason could be that its actually a faster route to go south through the U.S. than to go around the great lakes (for example, when going from Toronto to Vancouver). And given the speed limits and quality of roads, a trucker can make up any time lost by going through customs. (If you use google maps, a route from Toronto to Vancouver takes 1 day 16 hours if you go through the U.S., but if you stick to Canadian roads your travel time increases to over 2 days.)

A trip between (lets say) Halifax and Toronto is different. The fastest route actually sticks to Canada. According to Google maps, the most direct route goes through Quebec and takes 18 hours. If a trucker wanted to avoid Quebec, it would increase the travel time to over 19 hours.

Gas prices are another factor, of course, being (IIRC) substantially cheaper in most of the US, although that can change with the whim of the taxing authority.

But the central point is that no matter how much the customs delay (and cost of filling out the relevant transshipment forms) are, there's no way they can be reduced below the current delay and cost of ZERO.

 

[lomiller]

there's no way they can be reduced below the current delay and cost of ZERO.

Which is a strawman. Just because something doesn’t drop to zero doesn’t mean it’s a major issue.

 

[drkitten]

Which is a strawman. Just because something doesn’t drop to zero doesn’t mean it’s a major issue.

But it's yet another way in which Quebec independence could be a major problem.... and is literally impossible to be an improvement on the current state.

Or to put it another way, in the best of all possible worlds, an independent Quebec would cause no problems and solve none.

 

[Molinaro]

Have any of the pro-seperatists ever addressed their willingness to take on 24% of the federal debt as their fair share?

 

[dudalb]

The Plains of Abraham are a lot less relevant than people seem to think. Wolfe captured Quebec- not because Britian particularly wanted to keep it, but because they could take it and use it as a bargaining chip when time for peace talks came around.

It turned out that France didn't want to keep it as much as they wanted their more tropical colonies.

I am aware of that, but, let's face it, Plains of Abraham is the Only battle in the French and Indian War that most people have heard of.
And The Brits could have just cut off Quebec and Starved it out.
It is interesting that France sold out the Quebecois for a few islands in the Caribbean.
Voltaire's comments about two great Nations going to war over a few acres of snow comes to mind.
All this makes me glad that the attempt to take Quebec during the American Revolution failed.

BTW I was trying to make a joke with my last post.

 

[stilicho]

You DO realize that not all french people are separatists, don't you? Criticism of separatists does not constitute 'french bashing' any more than criticizing priests who abuse alterboys constitutes bashing all homosexuals.

Heck, not all Franco-Canadians even live in Quebec

I'm glad someone brought this up even though it took almost a whole page to do so. We forget that a lot of what makes Canada unique was the resolution of issues such as the Manitoba Schools question. Francophones outside of Quebec often look with dismay at the separatists.

There is little question that separatism is primarily a political movement and all cultural or economic considerations are far down the list.

 

[stilicho]

Not to mention the fact that a significant number of people live in Quebec but work in Ontario. If Quebec were a separate country, I doubt that Canada would allow that to continue. After all, we have our own work force who needs employment, and it would be an economic detriment to see salaries paid by Ontario companies being spent primarily in another country.

An independent Quebec would likely develop its own currency and probably keep it below the CAD to encourage foreign investment and to probably try and tip the scales the other way. It might wind up that unemployed Ontarioans would be crossing the border the other way to find work.

This might have the consequence of creating an even less "francophone" Quebec than its founders intended. Most of these issues aren't well conceived in any documents I've seen from the major separatist parties.

 

[Segnosaur]

(on the potential costs/problems of transporting items through customs with an independent quebec)
there's no way they can be reduced below the current delay and cost of ZERO.

Which is a strawman. Just because something doesn’t drop to zero doesn’t mean it’s a major issue.

Ummmm... don't think that quite fits the definition of 'straw man'.

It may not be a huge issue (for example, not something that alone would be worth using military force to keep Quebec in confederation), but it still is an issue, something that would negatively affect the rest of Canada were Quebec to separate. (And it is only one out of several issues I mentioned.)

 

[Segnosaur]

An independent Quebec would likely develop its own currency...

Possibly. But in the last referendum, Parizeau did seem to indicate that they'd continue using the Canadian dollar. (Of course, things might change in a decade or 2 following Quebec independance.)

... and probably keep it below the CAD to encourage foreign investment and to probably try and tip the scales the other way.

Keep in mind that while having a currency value does encourage exports and foreign investment, it also increases the cost of imports (increasing the cost of living).

It might wind up that unemployed Ontarioans would be crossing the border the other way to find work.

This might have the consequence of creating an even less "francophone" Quebec than its founders intended. Most of these issues aren't well conceived in any documents I've seen from the major separatist parties.

Interesting concept.

 

[stilicho]

Possibly. But in the last referendum, Parizeau did seem to indicate that they'd continue using the Canadian dollar. (Of course, things might change in a decade or 2 following Quebec independance.)

Keep in mind that while having a currency value does encourage exports and foreign investment, it also increases the cost of imports (increasing the cost of living).

Parizeau was being coy. One sovereign state does not ordinarily allow another sovereign state to issue its currency. Imagine trying to draft a constitution for your new country and having to specify that the right to issue currency resided in the Parliament of a foreign country. It's possible to do that but hardly inspiring for what's supposed to be a strong political movement.

I know your second point means a lowering of the standard of living. That's partly why I've argued that separatism is not really concerned so much about cultural identity or economics but really is about political will.

I don't view Quebec separatism or the BQ as the menace some of my alarmist friends do. The further the BQ becomes embroiled on the federal scene, the harder it is to maintain its ideology. It may be a permanent fixture or it may just be another United Farmers of Alberta.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

BQ?

ETA: Nevermind, I know now.

 

[stilicho]

BQ?

ETA: Nevermind, I know now.

Sorry, I ought to have spelled it out as "Bloc Quebecois". I often forget that Canada-specific topics are sometimes read by foreigners.

 

[stilicho]

Well the President would be the one elected, for one thing, everything would be turned around topsy-turvy. Instead of having an appointed "symbolic" head of state, we would have a fully-fledged elected head of state, and everything that it entails. Also, it's a matter of principle, why on earth we still have to listen to an appointed dummy queen from another country and another era completely escapes me.

I actually just noticed this. People in Quebec might not fully comprehend the issues associated with a republican form of government. How would it work if an Anglophone was elected to the office of president? Consider the checks and balances involved with the republican model.

This isn't like the creation of Ireland about 100 years ago, where it was not primarily a linguistic issue. There was no likelihood there that an Englishman or a Welshman would gain the presidency. But there is a really good chance that someone who speaks English primarily could be elected as president of an independent Quebec.

It's certainly telling that the first round of the separatist volley came from teachers and professors rather than what we call "ordinary people". Once you unleash the power of the voters to choose their head of state directly, how can you know it's going to follow that their choice is also in the best interests of the intellectuals who've crafted this republic?

I am simply offering a worst-case scenario but it's critical to take such an issue into account. As such, I'd recommend to the framers of the Quebec Constitution to have a "head of state" but to emasculate the position to the point of meaninglessness.

Kind of like what we have in Canada anyways.

 

[drkitten]

I actually just noticed this. People in Quebec might not fully comprehend the issues associated with a republican form of government. How would it work if an Anglophone was elected to the office of president? Consider the checks and balances involved with the republican model.

This isn't like the creation of Ireland about 100 years ago, where it was not primarily a linguistic issue. There was no likelihood there that an Englishman or a Welshman would gain the presidency. But there is a really good chance that someone who speaks English primarily could be elected as president of an independent Quebec.

I doubt this is that big an issue, simply because an Anglophone could only be elected President of Quebec if s/he were very sensitive and responsive to the needs of the Francophones.

Rather like Barack Obama in that regard -- the only reason a black man was elected President is by being whiter-than-white in cultural terms.

 

[stilicho]

I doubt this is that big an issue, simply because an Anglophone could only be elected President of Quebec if s/he were very sensitive and responsive to the needs of the Francophones.

Rather like Barack Obama in that regard -- the only reason a black man was elected President is by being whiter-than-white in cultural terms.

That's under the assumptions that the Republic of Quebec (a) remains linguistically French and (b) the preservation of the French language is the primary goal of the electors.

It would be difficult to argue that the barriers to an anglophone in an independent Quebec would be as tough as those faced by blacks in the US.

 

[drkitten]

That's under the assumptions that the Republic of Quebec (a) remains linguistically French and (b) the preservation of the French language is the primary goal of the electors.

Not quite. It's under the assumptions that the Republic of Quebec (a) remains culturally Quebecois and (b) the preservation of the Quebecois culture is the primary goal of the electors.

Given that separation is being presented almost purely as a cultural issue, I think that assumption (b) speaks for itself in the event of a successful separation. Quebec can separate only if (b) is true.

My point, such as it is, is that merely "speaking French (as a first language)" is not the same as "being Quebecois." This is obvious if you imagine how well a French-speaking Algerian carpetbagger would do in the local elections. While one of the needs and wants of the French-speaking Quebec electorate is preservation of the language, it's only one among many -- and it wouldn't be particularly threatened by a damn-nearly bilingual cultural historian from Gatineau with a degree from UQAM.

 

[stilicho]

Not quite. It's under the assumptions that the Republic of Quebec (a) remains culturally Quebecois and (b) the preservation of the Quebecois culture is the primary goal of the electors.

Given that separation is being presented almost purely as a cultural issue, I think that assumption (b) speaks for itself in the event of a successful separation. Quebec can separate only if (b) is true.

My point, such as it is, is that merely "speaking French (as a first language)" is not the same as "being Quebecois." This is obvious if you imagine how well a French-speaking Algerian carpetbagger would do in the local elections. While one of the needs and wants of the French-speaking Quebec electorate is preservation of the language, it's only one among many -- and it wouldn't be particularly threatened by a damn-nearly bilingual cultural historian from Gatineau with a degree from UQAM.

In the independent Republic of Quebec, then, a unilingual anglophone would consider themselves to be culturally a Quebecker and be accepted as such?

 

[drkitten]

In the independent Republic of Quebec, then, a unilingual anglophone would consider themselves to be culturally a Quebecker and be accepted as such?

In the independent Republic of Quebec, a unilingual anglophone would have to consider themselves to be culturally a Quebecker and be accepted as such in order to be elected to high national office.

 

[Pardalis]

In the independent Republic of Quebec, a unilingual anglophone would have to consider themselves to be culturally a Quebecker and be accepted as such in order to be elected to high national office.

No, he/she just needs to be resident of Québec to be able to be elected. How one views oneself culturally is not a factor, there's not "test" to find out what people think of themselves.

Although it would play against him in the public's eye, there wouldn't be any legal reason for him or her not to present himself as a candidate.

Could a person who only speaks Spanish and who doesn't consider himself an American run for office in America? Yes.

Could he win? Very unlikely.

 

[drkitten]

No, he/she just needs to be resident of Québec to be able to be elected.

You're proving my point for me. While he could easily present himself as a candidate, he could almost certainly not get elected unless he's culturally Quebecois.

Could a person who only speaks Spanish and who doesn't consider himself an American run for office in America? Yes.

Could he win? Very unlikely.

Exactly. I wasn't suggesting that he couldn't file the paperwork for candidacy.

I suggested, and I quote, "a unilingual anglophone would have to consider themselves to be culturally a Quebecker and be accepted as such in order to be elected to high national office."