Quantum Physics

[Dumbledore]

I would disagree with these statements. Many new age types are not just blind believers or quacks, they simply don't understand. Explaining actual reality to them is likely to be far more effective than simply telling them they are wrong. No doubt the people who make up the stuff about quantum physics won't care, but many of the people who are suckered in by them can be helped by educating them.

As for new agers using this to help their arguments, as I said in my last post I think part of the problem is actually the opposite. Simply telling people that they are wrong, so there, does nothing to educate or convince them. If you can actually teach people why quantum physics doesn't apply the macro scale rather than simply telling them it is so, you will be much more effective at countering the woo.

At the moment I see the situation as bascially new agers say "It works, but we don't know how", scientists say "It doesn't work, but we won't tell you how". People just pick which one to believe, which is rarely going to be the scientists. If instead the scientists say "It doesn't work and this is why it doesn't work", it can only help the scientists and not the new agers.

Then we will have to agree to disagree, all of my experiences with New Agers has lead me to believe that only firmly and clearly pointing to the fallacy of using QM in dealing with the macro level is able to convince them they are mistaken about QM. But as I stated you are not going to convince many New Agers of this, they are far to attached to their view of the world for this. If you have luck explaining the complexities of QM at the macro level to New Agers more power to you. It has been my experience however that these people choose to believe in new age philosophy and explanations for a reason and quite often that reason is that they dislike science and do not try to understand it. If these people did want to know about science and how QM works, they would bother to educate themselves.

Finally I am not arguing to simply tell a New Ager that they are wrong. I am arguing to tell them that QM does not apply at the macro level. Which is true for the things they choose to apply it to. If a New Ager wanted to know more of the details of QM and how it works I would be more than happy to explain it to them. Quite often they don't though, they more often than not only want their beliefs reinforced.

 

[Dumbledore]

I used to believe this, but ignorance seems to be an endless pit. I don't think the problem is that they don't understand, but rather that they don't want to understand. Surely you've tried this yourself? You make a concerted effort to explain, becoming increasingly detailed as they counter with attempts to leave themselves an out, until one or the other of you tires of it. It always devolves to a point where you are simply telling them they they are wrong. As beautifully put as your explanation about what QM means at a macro level was, a new ager wouldn't leave it at that. It would be countered with additional gobbledygook, leading you further and further down the path of "simply don't understand". You think you will be arriving at your destination just around the next bend, but the path has no end. It's not a difference in knowledge or understanding. It's a difference in approach to knowledge and understanding, or lack thereof.

Linda

From my experience you are exactly right!!!!

 

[Jimbo07]

There was a time when I dipped into the 'New Age' rather heavily. It was at a pretty low point in my life. One problem with the 'knowledge' is that people get into self-reinforcing communities. If I lacked knowledge... well... so did the next guy, and the next girl and so forth. We were relatively free to make up whatever facts we wanted. Reality was determined by consensus, rather than physical fact.

Strangely, though, as most of my group matured and put their problems in perspective, we drifted away from woo. By the time I had the maturity to go really get back and succeed in school, I was also prepared to leave some woo behind. I don't know what the ultimate solution is, but from my own experiences, a lot has to do with the company you keep, but I can't tell the chicken from the egg...

 

[Dumbledore]

There was a time when I dipped into the 'New Age' rather heavily. It was at a pretty low point in my life. One problem with the 'knowledge' is that people get into self-reinforcing communities. If I lacked knowledge... well... so did the next guy, and the next girl and so forth. We were relatively free to make up whatever facts we wanted. Reality was determined by consensus, rather than physical fact.

Strangely, though, as most of my group matured and put their problems in perspective, we drifted away from woo. By the time I had the maturity to go really get back and succeed in school, I was also prepared to leave some woo behind. I don't know what the ultimate solution is, but from my own experiences, a lot has to do with the company you keep, but I can't tell the chicken from the egg...

Thanks for your post it certainly gives insight into where a New Ager might be coming from and it reinforces my initial assertion. You are not going to convince New Agers with scientific arguments about QM, though you can try. No matter how rationally you approach them and argue the subject they are not going to want to believe you, especially if believing you means giving up views they hold so dearly, and challenging their friends opinions!