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"Quantum" homoeopathy: physicists required

When debating homoeopaths in professional journals, or in "even-handed" debating forums, they repeatedly trot out the "you're so stupid you don't understand quantum physics, and how the great Dr. Milgrom of Imperial College has proved, by his ground-breaking research, that homoeopathy works by quantum mechanics" line.


For example on this page (which I think was shpalman's introduction to "the great Dr. Milgrom of Imperial College") where a homoeopath takes time out from lecturing other posters about the necessity for politeness to post:
Wayne……

Duhhhhhh!!!

You are obviously from another country (planet)? Imperial College is a prestigious English University, in fact it outranks Harvard. If you have any problems with the sort of research their Department of Chemistry wants to study, why don’t you have the guts to take it up with them?


I'm not sure that Milgrom's homoeopathic activities are anything to do with Imperial College in any case. He's described as "a Senior Visiting Scientist" in this "Persoanl [sic] Biography", from the website of a company associated with Imperial College, but there's no mention of homoeopathy or of his papers about quantum mechanics there, although it does mention "some 70 academic papers on various scientific aspects of porphyrins". One of the other biographies on the site says that the subject has since 1997 been "working with Professor David Phillips and Dr Lionel Milgrom on the synthesis of novel sensitisers for use in PDT".

This page says that Lionel is "pragmatic about the challenges facing them in their search for further funding". Perhaps that's why he doesn't mention his adventures in quantum physics.
 
I'm still waiting for my eLetter to appear.


Well, eLetters critical of Milgrom have appeared there in the past.

It's kind of ironic that Milgrom complains that a writer "hasn't really bothered to tackle the primary source literature in any meaningful fashion", but when letters are sent that directly address papers that Milgrom cites they seem to be much slower to appear. Perhaps "evidence-based complementary and alternative medicine" only works if you're careful about what evidence you allow yourself to see.
 
You should search for him also at the Royal Society of Chemistry wesbite.

I wonder if my Cambridge Nat. Sci. degree beats Milgrom's Imperial College (ex-)position for the purposes of argument-by-authority Top Trumps?

I've been looking through the 36 papers which, according to ISI Web of Knowledge, cite Atmanspacher et. al.'s Weak Quantum Theory thingy. Many of them are written by Milgrom, some are written by one of more of the original authors, a couple are in some obscure German journal, there is maybe one which is an actual physics paper (A. E. Allahverdyan, A. Khrennikov, and Th. M. Nieuwenhuizen. Brownian entanglement. Phys. Rev. A 72 (3) 032102 (2005)), there is one called "Correlations between brain electrical activities of two spatially separated human subjects" (Jiří Wackermann, Christian Seiter, Holger Keibel, and Harald Walach. Neurosci. Lett. 336 (1) 60-64 (2003)) but lots turn out to be editorial or brief letters. But see, for example, Marek Kosmulski. The Emperor's New Clothes. J. Alt. Comp. Med. 13 (2) 185-186 (2007).
 
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The background of the Atmanspacher et al. (2002) paper is interesting. (My first giggle is at Atmanspacher's affiliation to the Max Planck Institute, at which the irony meter goes off the scale, but never mind.)

I don't know anything about Romer, but Walach, the third author, is an old acquaintance, a homoeopathy apologist extraordinaire. His earlier (2000) paper, Magic of Signs, is leaned on very heavily by Milgrom in his first "quantum metaphor" paper, and I get the impression that it is in fact the source of Milgrom's ideas. It seems to me to be an earlier attempt to explain the lack of effect in controlled trials on something other than classical physics, but in this case "magic" gets a lot more name-checking than "quantum".

Although the original substance is diluted, it is still in some way 'present' and effective. This presence, I will contend in this paper, is a magical, not a causal presence, like the one described in the text by Scholem. Magical presence and effects are wrought by signs, not by causes. In this sense, homeopathy is effective in a non-local way: it acts by magically activating connectedness. .... I will turn to explain how the scientifically obscene word 'magic' can be understood in an inoffensive way.

The homeopathic medicine is a sign which mediates the meaning between a mental-psychological state, the illness in the patient, and the physical realm of bodily functions, elements of nature, and the like. It acts via the original interconnectedness of all beings, which is activated, as in magical rituals, by the homeopathic ritual of case taking, remedy preparation, repertorization and remedy prescription.

The paper actually includes an excellent and succinct summary of the weakness of the "empirical database" in support of homoeopathy - perhaps the best I've seen even including sceptics' summaries. But of course that doesn't mean it doesn't work, oh dear me no, his faith is too great for that.

I think he really did at this point intend to make "the scientifically obscene word 'magic' .... inoffensive", and use that as the paradigm. However, he does note the similarity of his ideas to some aspects of quantum theory, and includes a subsection on "quantum entanglement" among the various aspects of magic he discusses. I also note he names Atmanspacher in his acknowledgements list.

My hunch is (and if Walach can get away with publishing his hunches, so can I) that the pair of them realised that the "magic" paradigm wasn't really going to fly, and that it might in fact make homoeopathy look ridiculous, therefore they decided to concoct an explicitly "quantum" background which could be used by Milgrom in particular to construct a scientific-sounding "quantum" explanation.

Milgrom's first paper (2002) references Walach's 2000 Magic of Signs quite extensively, however it also references Atmanspacher et al. (also 2002), which is at that point "in press", demonstrating that he had pre-publication access to it, and presumably discussed it with its authors. Am I wide of the mark in imagining Atmanspacher saying "there you go, Lionel old boy, a quantum paper you can draw on to make homoeopathy sound as scientifically respectable as you like!"

I really do believe that this whole "Weak Quantum Theory" concept was simply invented by a bunch of homoeopaths and their fellow-travellers in order to provide material for Lionel to base his maunderings on.

Walach was last heard of designing and organising a large multi-centre provings experiment, which although unnecessarily complicated was I believe intended to be strictly blinded, and was designed to demonstrate that proving symptoms are indeed a real effect. However this was some time ago, and I've heard nothing about the progress.

This has all the hallmarks of mutual intellectual masturbation, but unfortunately the effect of "the seminal work of the great Dr. Milgrom of Imperial College has demonstrated how homoeopathy works by quantum entanglement" has made it into the real world.

Rolfe.
 
This has all the hallmarks of mutual intellectual masturbation, but unfortunately the effect of "the seminal work of the great Dr. Milgrom of Imperial College has demonstrated how homoeopathy works by quantum entanglement" has made it into the real world.

Rolfe.

Well, if you engage in mutual intellectual masturbation, you're bound to end up with a seminal work.
 
The background of the Atmanspacher et al. (2002) paper is interesting. (My first giggle is at Atmanspacher's affiliation to the Max Planck Institute, at which the irony meter goes off the scale, but never mind.)

I don't know anything about Romer...

I found "Complementarity is a useful concept for consciousness studies. A Reminder" by Harald Walach & Hartmann Römer, Neuroendocrinology Letters 21 3 221-232 (2000).

A case can be made that the dogmatic formula which was the result of the concilium of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. that Jesus Christ is man and God in one person is an early example of thinking in terms of complementarity in the West...

It seems like Römer was the actual physicist out of the three of them - at his Uni Freiburg homepage he lists his research interests as "Geometric methods in classical and quantum field theory and mechanics".
 
What's your take on the "they made it all up to give Lionel something to write about" theory?

Rolfe.
 
Gentlefolk, I take absolute delight in following your discussion, but can I please bring you back to what is, I feel, a salient point: The people who read and trumpet Milgrom are stupid. I don't mean this in a derogatory way. I mean it in the sense that they would not know if Milgrom had researched the subject thoroughly for years and had great wads of supporting scholarly evidence, or if it was simply the result of a rather bad vindaloo after a long night boozing down the pub. The point is that they believe Milgrom because they want to believe Milgrom, not because he has any point.

And you are falling for the trap of assuming that these very same people are able to tell the difference between any reasoned disputation you may publish and Milgrom's tosh. In the vast majority of cases they cannot. They simply do not have the educational background necessary to do so. (And frankly, some of them don't have the educational background necessary to cross the road without someone reading the traffic lights for them.) You are talking to basically junior school children here, not academics.

What really is needed, if it is at all possible, is to present Milgrom's claims but pitched to the average ten-year-old (i.e. a Sun reader). Then you can probably spend far less time and effort in constructing a debunk; for a start, that process alone will reveal how destitute of sense Milgrom's claims actually are.
 
While accepting your point, Zep, I have to reiterate that my problem with woos and Milgrom isn't the woos themselves, it's the ammunition Milgrom gives the woos when debating in the scientific and medical press. The way they present his "work" can sound very convincing to the uncommitted, and it's difficult to deal with it in a way that doesn't leave a taste of "well, that's interesting, maybe there's something in it" behind.

Rolfe.
 
What's your take on the "they made it all up to give Lionel something to write about" theory?

Rolfe.

Hmmm. It does seem that Walach was already thinking along those lines in 2000, what with the "Magic of Signs" and "Complementarity is a useful concept for consciousness studies" papers, and he got Römer (who seems otherwise sensible) to help him out. But Atmanspacher has a paper from 1999, though, where he already seems to be going on about dualism:

Harald Atmanspacher, Holger Bösch, Emil Boller, Roger D. Nelson, and Herbert Scheingraben. Deviations from Physical Randomness Due to Human Agent Intention? Chaos, Solitons and Fractals 10 (6) 935-952 (1999).

Maybe the question is where Milgrom got his ideas about entanglement from - a paper of his which predates (by less than a year) PPR Part 1 is "Vitalism, complexity and the concept of spin." Homeopathy 91 (1) 26-31 (2002). In this he talks about spin, inspired by some NMR studies (L. R. Milgrom, K. R. King, J. Lee, and A. S. Pinkus. Brit. Homeopathy J. 90 (1) 5-13 (2001)), and seems to come up with the gyroscope metaphor, but he hasn't really quantized himself at that point and he doesn't cite Magic of Signs (which I think he should have been able to, because it had been published).

The WQT paper was received at Found. Phys. in September 2001, just after Vitalism, complexity and the concept of spin, and then PPR Part 1 was received in April 2002. So it seems like the WQT paper was actually being written at the same time as the Spin one, which doesn't seem to have that much quantum bollocks in it. So it seems a maybe a little bit more likely that Walach saw the Spin paper and sent the preprint of WQT to Milgrom (and told him about Magic of Signs) at which point he wrote PPR Part 1.
 
Gentlefolk, I take absolute delight in following your discussion, but can I please bring you back to what is, I feel, a salient point: The people who read and trumpet Milgrom are stupid.

Yes, I know, but maybe there are decent, honest people at the edges who would be set on the path to righteousness if they only saw oh no hang on that's not going to happen. Oh well.

What really is needed, if it is at all possible, is to present Milgrom's claims but pitched to the average ten-year-old (i.e. a Sun reader). Then you can probably spend far less time and effort in constructing a debunk; for a start, that process alone will reveal how destitute of sense Milgrom's claims actually are.

I honestly don't know if a ten year old could get their head around quantum mechanics, but seeing as he keeps going on about people not being able to criticize unless they've read the WQT paper there doesn't seem to be a way to deal with it which doesn't get into the details of how quantum mechanics actually works.
 
The paper by Milgrom et. al., "On the investigation of homeopathic potencies using low resolution NMR T2 relaxation times: an experimental and critical survey of the work of Roland Conte et al." Brit. Homeopathy J. 90 (1) 5-13 (2001), is seriously worth reading. Basically the idea is that Conte did some NMR of a sample under increasing amounts of whatever it is homeopaths do, and saw some anomalous effect, and Milgrom et. al work out that it was only impurities leaching out of the glass. The comments on Conte's quantum physical explanation for his data really bend the needle on the irony meter.

That our observed fluctuations in T2 values largely disappeared by changing the glassware of our NMR tubes seems to have been a reason for non-reproducibility that Conte et al have not considered. We suggest that such an observation renders their highly complex mathematico-physical hypothesis for the action of high dilutions on biological systems unnecessary. On the basis of the similar low-resolution NMR experiments we have performed so far, we doubt therefore, whether Conte et al's work could provide a quantitative basis for reliable diagnostic and therapeutic methodologies using homeopathically potentised remedies, or the need for their QFT/relativity-based mathematico-physical hypothesis to explain the homeopathic potentisation process.

He even spells "Auyang" and "Gribbin" right! What happened to the guy?
 
The paper by Milgrom et. al., "On the investigation of homeopathic potencies using low resolution NMR T2 relaxation times: an experimental and critical survey of the work of Roland Conte et al." Brit. Homeopathy J. 90 (1) 5-13 (2001), is seriously worth reading. Basically the idea is that Conte did some NMR of a sample under increasing amounts of whatever it is homeopaths do, and saw some anomalous effect, and Milgrom et. al work out that it was only impurities leaching out of the glass. The comments on Conte's quantum physical explanation for his data really bend the needle on the irony meter.



He even spells "Auyang" and "Gribbin" right! What happened to the guy?
I'd suggest that this "Et Al" guy did the writing, not Milgrom.
 
I have just e-mailed ECAM Journal querying the fact that they have neither published our latest responses nor contacted us about them.
 
I have just e-mailed ECAM Journal querying the fact that they have neither published our latest responses nor contacted us about them.


Well, there's still nothing new there. That's 'evidence-based' sCAM for you, I guess, telescope held firmly to its blind eye and screaming "I see no replies".
 
If any physicists with expertise in QM have a little spare time, could they comment on this paper by Lionel Milgrom: Journeys in The Country of The Blind: Entanglement Theory and The Effects of Blinding on Trials of Homeopathy and Homeopathic Provings?

There have been a couple of comments posted, but Milgrom is complaining that nobody has "bothered to tackle the primary source literature in any meaningful fashion".

There's been a paper published in Evidence Based CAM in defence of Lionel's mangling of QM:

Hankey, A., 2009 Macroscopic Quantum Coherence in Patient-Practitioner-Remedy Entanglement: The Quantized Fluctuation Field Perspective Evidence Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine Vol. 6 no. 4 pp. 449-451

Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2781781/

Semms to make every bit as much sense as the original!

Yuri
 
Presumably Chrastina saw this response??
Did he respond in turn?


Reading Alex Hankey's article makes me wonder how he manages to live a normal existence, just interacting with reality and functioning in society.
 
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