QAnon Strikes again

[Checkmite]

Never said that it meant that.

What I said is that the only "why else" when diagnosing schizophrenia as per the DSM-5 is establishing whether it's the likes of drug use or neural damage causing the problem. NOT whether they read it anywhere else. E.g., if it turns out that the guy was tripping acid when they had the hallucination, hmm, you can go Occam conform and assume it doesn't need schizophrenia too as an explanation.

But that's exactly what I'm trying to explain to you.

The analogy to "acid" in this case is already-existing conspiracy theories and the communities that spread them. Getting involved in those things alter one's worldview and in so doing can induce morality shifts and criminal actions. I think this guy's beliefs and actions can be easily attributed to exposure to and immersion in those things, no mental health diagnosis necessary.

And again, that is not an exception from the DSM-5. To repeat myself, NOTHING in there says that it's only a delusion if you came up with it yourself. The wording in DSM-3 and DSM-4 was kinda allowing for that interpretation, but that's no longer the case in the DSM-5.

That said, if you really want to go into that tangent, I'll point out that he had to do SOME of the crazy logic himself. A CT site can tell you all about the reptilian elite rulers, but it's unlikely that it will tell you that Jane Doe, a random suburban mother, is one of them. The part where his wife is one of the shapeshifting reptile and passed that DNA to her children had to be his own inference. The part where he knew his children will be such a major problem to the world as to need him to kill them to save the world, also had to be his own inference. You won't find on these kinds of CT boards some prophecy that some random 10 months old infant is the one destined to destroy the world. He had to make that connection himself. SOMEHOW.

The reports have been that the man says his wife has "serpent DNA" and that she passed some of this along to their children who are supposed to one day become monsters. It's different enough from the usual Icke "shapeshifting reptilian aliens" jargon that I'm not comfortable automatically assuming that the father for instance believed they were necessarily "aliens" or that his children "shapeshifted". The actual reports don't go that far.

But aside from that, this is where the QAnon part comes in. You mentioned earlier in a post to someone else that you just can't see what QAnon has to do with this situation. Well, we know it is important enough to the killer himself that he told the police about it when attempting to explain his actions, so QAnon is obviously connected to his actions in his opinion.

But a unique thing about QAnon is, as I've explained elsewhere, it seems to have a knack for indirectly convincing its believers that their own friends and immediate family members are part of "the Cabal" or at least willing lackeys. I mentioned the case of Alpalus Slyman, a Q believer who concluded that his wife and 13-year-old daughter - a child herself - were sex-trafficking children for the Cabal. One of the first QAnon-related killings was a young man who tried to convince his parents that the pedophile Cabal was real and stabbed his father for arguing with him about it. Much more recently, the father of a survivor of the Stoneham-Douglas school shooting in Florida was convinced by QAnon that the shooting was a hoax and decided that his kid had to be "in on it". Yes, QAnon may not say in so many words that you - the person reading this - your spouse or kid is certainly a conspirator; but they certainly do say that it CAN be the case, they provide narratives of other believers who have "discovered" that to be the case, and they also provide a very broad-brush means of identifying "conspirators" that can easily make family members' behavior seem "suspicious".

So, if you've come to believe that the world is controlled by elites who are secretly "reptilians" and then you are introduced to QAnon which says those same elites also are members of a vampiric pedophile Cabal then you are already aware that the Cabal members are lizard-people; but Q goes further than Icke precisely because it "reveals" that it's not just elites that are part of the Cabal, it's common everyday people too - including, potentially, people you personally interact with and care about.

 

[Checkmite]

So thinking that your wife has passed on her reptilian DNA to ones children and therefore they need to be exterminated to prevent propagation of said DNA is a rational position in your view?

I think it DOES take a certain kind of gullibility or suggestibility to be convinced that your wife carries "serpent DNA"; but once you believe that, in the idea that she passed that DNA on to her children makes logical sense at least just because that's how heredity works.

Gullibility and suggestibility aren't mental illnesses, though.

 

[HansMustermann]

The reports have been that the man says his wife has "serpent DNA" and that she passed some of this along to their children who are supposed to one day become monsters. It's different enough from the usual Icke "shapeshifting reptilian aliens" jargon that I'm not comfortable automatically assuming that the father for instance believed they were necessarily "aliens" or that his children "shapeshifted". The actual reports don't go that far.

It's true that we don't have all the details, but I repeat, we know that his deposition states that "it was the only course of action to save the world". (Source, for example: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/12/california-matthew-coleman-children-killed ) It's not just that they had reptile DNA. He thought he needed to SAVE THE WORLD from them.

The whole thing goes well beyond just being gullible. A CT will tell you that the Annunaki (lizard overlords) are real, and I suppose you might believe it if you're terminally gullible. Or even that they're somehow mixed with the paedo cabal of the QAnon CT. But it will NOT tell you stuff like that specifically little Roxy Rain Coleman, still an infant that nobody else has heard about, is the most dangerous Annunaki who's ever lived.

That kinda has to be his own inference.

 

[Checkmite]

The whole thing goes well beyond just being gullible. A CT will tell you that the Annunaki (lizard overlords) are real, and I suppose you might believe it if you're terminally gullible. Or even that they're somehow mixed with the paedo cabal of the QAnon CT. But it will NOT tell you stuff like that specifically little Roxy Rain Coleman, still an infant that nobody else has heard about, is the most dangerous Annunaki who's ever lived.

That kinda has to be his own inference.

But you're putting that assertion into his mouth. "Lizard-people" believers consider all reptilians to be a danger to the world. Did he kill his children because he thought them uniquely dangerous among lizard-people, or did he kill them just because they were the only vulnerable soon-to-be lizard-people he had direct access to?

 

[cullennz]

It's true that we don't have all the details, but I repeat, we know that his deposition states that "it was the only course of action to save the world". (Source, for example: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/12/california-matthew-coleman-children-killed ) It's not just that they had reptile DNA. He thought he needed to SAVE THE WORLD from them.

The whole thing goes well beyond just being gullible. A CT will tell you that the Annunaki (lizard overlords) are real, and I suppose you might believe it if you're terminally gullible. Or even that they're somehow mixed with the paedo cabal of the QAnon CT. But it will NOT tell you stuff like that specifically little Roxy Rain Coleman, still an infant that nobody else has heard about, is the most dangerous Annunaki who's ever lived.

That kinda has to be his own inference.

I find it hard to see why you or any one else cares enough to take it seriously or give a ****

 

[Checkmite]

As an aside, I think we might be making a mistake here by not paying much more attention to what the killer actually did as opposed to what he told police when he was caught.

Coleman apparently drove the children from Santa Barbara all the way to Rosarito, Mexico, and stayed at a hotel with them for two days, checking in on a Saturday and finally taking them out and killing them the following Monday. He then dumps the bodies in a rural area outside of town and dumps the murder weapon in a separate location miles away from where he left the bodies. While he appears to have been ignorant of the possibility of cell phone tracking (which is how he was ultimately caught), it seems like he planned the crime with a fair amount of forensic countermeasure built in.

Another highly interesting detail is that he planted a bloody wooden stake at the scene where he left the bodies, apparently to give the impression of some kind of satanic ritual murder - a ploy which, according to some reports, actually seemed to have worked at least initially, until he finally revealed the real murder weapon and its location to American authorities after being caught trying to cross the border again. Going to those lengths to obfuscate the reason for the killing, IMO, makes it difficult to completely trust the honesty of his later statements. It is not impossible that, like a certain serial killer previously mentioned who pretended to have a delusion that his neighbor's dog was commanding him to commit the crimes, Coleman doesn't actually believe that his wife has serpent-DNA and that's not the reason he killed his kids.

 

[HansMustermann]

I find it hard to see why you or any one else cares enough to take it seriously or give a ****

I find it hard to see why you're still in the thread if you're not interested. Using the back button seems way easier than complaining that people are still discussing the actual details of the case in the OP, such as what ARE those crazy CT's that supposedly caused the act actually saying. Which is to say, being on topic.

 

[HansMustermann]

As an aside, I think we might be making a mistake here by not paying much more attention to what the killer actually did as opposed to what he told police when he was caught.

Yes, but what he did also included years of posting BS that IS consistent with having some rather bizarre religious delusions of grandeur. His son was supposed to be appointed by heavens to bring the heavenly dove (which is common symbolism for the Holy Spirit) to this generation. Then his daughter was hand-picked by God to slay the giants.

And I mean, sure, parents tend to talk up their kids a bit, but most tend to at least be socially-aware enough to not post page-long religious ramblings comparing their son's birth to the baptism of Jesus, and heavens opening for God's voice to announce his son to the world. There's the normal "we're sure he'll grow up to be a great person", there's even using a bit of metaphoric language like "dad's little angel", and then there's... THAT.

It's kinda hard to believe that that's part of a years-long cunning plan to throw the police off when he finally kills his kids, starting from before they were even actually out of their mom's womb yet.

And again, I don't think it's just gullibility. I mean, sure, you'll find religious sites that talk about how the giants in Genesis were real, but even then it's in the past tense, and won't tell you stuff like that specifically little Roxy Rain Coleman from Santa Barbara, who is just getting born, is hand-picked by God to slay the giants. If there is one that can tell you that kind of ultra-specific thing about a random person, I'd really like to see it. (Hey, it might say I'm destined to screw a giantess. I want to know)

 

[Checkmite]

Yes, but what he did also included years of posting BS that IS consistent with having some rather bizarre religious delusions of grandeur. His son was supposed to be appointed by heavens to bring the heavenly dove (which is common symbolism for the Holy Spirit) to this generation. Then his daughter was hand-picked by God to slay the giants.

And I mean, sure, parents tend to talk up their kids a bit, but most tend to at least be socially-aware enough to not post page-long religious ramblings comparing their son's birth to the baptism of Jesus, and heavens opening for God's voice to announce his son to the world. There's the normal "we're sure he'll grow up to be a great person", there's even using a bit of metaphoric language like "dad's little angel", and then there's... THAT.

It really is just typical charismatic-Christian "warrior of God" fluff. I live in a place where these people are everywhere and they all talk like that when they're "feeling the spirit".

 

[HansMustermann]

Well, I suppose I should be thankful I don't live anywhere near that kind of nutters, then.

 

[catsmate]

I'll also return to the previous idea that somehow he had to be sane 10 months prior. In fact, in retrospect he seems to have already been severely delusional. In fact, 10 months prior to the crime, right after his daughter was born, Coleman wrote a post on Instagram that ‘She has been hand picked by God to slay the giants in the land’ and that she has been given everything she needs to carry out that divine plan.

So he was a nutter for a long time, but the focus of his nuttery changed, perhaps under the influence of the Q-Nuts?

 

[HansMustermann]

So he was a nutter for a long time, but the focus of his nuttery changed, perhaps under the influence of the Q-Nuts?

That was my own impression on the topic, yes.

 

[catsmate]

That was my own impression on the topic, yes.

That seems psychologically plausible to me. The question that follows is, would he have been as homicidally inclined if his 'nuttery focus' hadn't changed? Presumably his kids would have been safe, unless he decided they were actually agents of the antichrist in disguise (which is always possible), but would he have been as likely to kill others if it weren't for the pernicious influence of the Q-Nuts?

 

[HansMustermann]

Probably even his psychiatrist can't know that for sure. You can predict what someone sane will do or won't do, to some extent, but someone whose mind doesn't follow any sane logic, only FSM knows what they'll do. And IF it's schizophrenia (note the big "IF"), it only gets worse over time, if left untreated.

That said, as I was saying, QAnon is super-stupid, but it really has nothing to do with what he's been saying about lizard people. That's an entirely different CT. But even if you get rid of both, it's not like there is a shortage of other stupid stuff on the Internet. Sooner or later he'd run into some other stupid ideas, and IF it's delusions of grandeur (see how the opinion of his kids went straight from basically messiah to lizard antichrist, without just going to "maybe they're just normal kids" like a normal person), he'd probably find some way to take those to some stupid extreme too.

Just to make it clear, we don't KNOW for sure exactly what biological cause would schizophrenia have (IF that's his problem), but in any case the delusions come from one's own fantasy. Whether we're talking about the hallucinations in paranoid schizophrenia, or what does one take the delusions of reference to mean, or pretty much any other delusion, ultimately it's a failure to distinguish between something that comes from one's own brain and an external stimulus. So if you plant different ideas in his head, yeah, you get different visions and signs.

But, as I was saying, only FSM knows what those would be.

Edit: I mean, look at Charles Manson. I really don't think anyone could predict that anyone ever will make the connection from Beatles lyrics to 'a racial revolution is imminent, gotta start killing a bunch of people'. But that's exactly the delusions of reference that Charles Manson got. That's the kind of unpredictable randomness you get, when someone's running on crazy logic.

 

[erlando]

That's gone a bit back and forth depending on the sources I've read. I've read that he was charged in the US but Mexico is looking to extradite, since it happened on their soil.

I'm not sure where he'll end up.

Hopefully in the hell he believes in.

 

[arthwollipot]

Edit: I mean, look at Charles Manson. I really don't think anyone could predict that anyone ever will make the connection from Beatles lyrics to 'a racial revolution is imminent, gotta start killing a bunch of people'. But that's exactly the delusions of reference that Charles Manson got. That's the kind of unpredictable randomness you get, when someone's running on crazy logic.

Especially since those lyrics are:

When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide
Where I stop and I turn and I go for a ride
Till I get to the bottom and I see you again
Do you, don't you want me to love you
I'm coming down fast but I'm miles above you
Tell me, tell me, tell me, come on tell me the answer
Well, you may be a lover but you ain't no dancer