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Merged Puzzling results from CERN

I think the upper bound on a neutrino's mass is a few tens of eV (any flavour of neutrino). As I recall that comes from the 1987a supernova results, and probably other things. That is *tiny*. For reference an electron's mass is 511keV and a proton is around 940MeV.
Actually you get incredibly tight constraints from an area you probably wouldn't expect it - cosmology. By observing the largest scales in the universe you constrain the summed masses of the neutrinos to less than half an eV.

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0412075 is a review from a few years back, but search at http://arxiv.org/find/astro-ph and you'll find it's quite an active area.
 
Actually you get incredibly tight constraints from an area you probably wouldn't expect it - cosmology. By observing the largest scales in the universe you constrain the summed masses of the neutrinos to less than half an eV.

Thanks!
 
But don't we need the error to be larger than 64ns?

Do neutrinos move at the speed of light or slower? And if at the speed of light, how can any object that has mass move that fast?

(I'm sure I'm missing something there...)

They're moving essentially at the speed of light. For example, assuming a mass of ~1eV, a 1keV neutrino will already be travelling at 99.99995% c. For energies on the order of GeV as the neutrinos in question will have had, there are enough 9s that the calculator can't tell the difference and just says 100%.

To give an example of what that means, the neutrinos from supernova 1987a that the others have mentioned actually arrived before the light. That's possible because the neutrinos can escape from the core of the star when the supernova begins, whereas light can't get out through the outer layers of the star until the explosion has progressed further. But the neutrinos travel so fast that even given 168,000 years the light still wasn't able to catch up with them.
 
Someone else has probably said this - isn't this a classic example that shows how silly the claims are about how the scientific community suppresses new ideas and anything that threatens "THE CONSENSUS"?

Difficult call. See, this result didn't go through peer review, it went onto arXiv, and then it got publicised, and since it's such a big deal for this many professional physicists working on a serious world-class project to be putting their name to a result like this, it was then almost impossible for the media /not/ to get hold of it and run with it, and within a couple of days it seemed to be on all the major news networks.

So the team essentially bypassed the usual peer-review quality-control system. In one respect, this probably did the journals a favour, because under mainstream journal guidelines (last time I looked), a journal might have been forced to reject the paper on the grounds that submitted pieces have to be free from identifiable error, and the fact that their result appears to disagree with SR (our standard reference theory for this sort of thing) would have to be counted as an apparent indication of error. And that'd put the journal in the embarrassing position of having to write back and tell the authors that they couldn't publish it. If this turned out to be a world-changer, that'd be like a record company being forced to turn down the Beatles because of company policy.

Some people in the physics community are actually quite unhappy that this paper has gotten onto the news and is being publicly discussed - they think that it should have been kept quiet until the assumed error had been identified. If things had been up to them as editors or reviewers, the paper would have been blocked until the result could be considered disproved, we wouldn't have had the media circus, and most of us here probably wouldn't know that the result had ever happened. To those guys, bypassing the scientific community's systems and going straight to the public is considered "unprofessional", whether it's done by this team or by the cold fusion guys. And apparently, half the experimental team were reluctant to have the paper published (by a journal) in its current form either, presumably they were worried about having their careers damaged by being associated with a high-profile "faulty" experiment.

I mean, I guess they're kinda pleased about the coverage they're getting /now/, but it might not have been obvious to them beforehand that they wouldn't get a professional roasting.
There's always been a big disincentive to publish "faulty" results, if you look back at Michelson-Morley, /now/ we tend to consider it as great experiment, but back then Michelson's collegues supposedly thought he was pathetic for not only failing in his experiment, but for being stupid enough to advertise the failure (which nobody else could then replicate for years). So if Michelson had bowed to peer pressure, maybe he wouldn't have published. And if he'd waited for third-party verification before publishing he might have had to wait a couple of decades.

The impression that I'm getting here is that science journalists and writers love the paper, students are excited, and some of the excitement has started to rub off on theorists. After all, those theorists are now being invited onto the telly to give their opinions for news programmes. It's exciting. But some of the journals might be getting a bit grumpy, because it makes them look irrelevant. Instead of giving the paper to a journal to get it peer-reviewed anonymously (so that it could sit and moulder for years as reviewer after reviewer submitted notes on "The result can't possibly be right, and here's another list of possible things that might have gone wrong") -- remember, it took years for James Terrell's controversial paper to get past peer review -- the group have succeeded PR-wise by effectively short-circuiting the "proper" scientific journal peer-review system and the usual quality-control "gatekeepers", going freelance, and crowd-sourcing their reviews.

As far as Science is concerned, its been a success -- feedback has been fast and dynamic, and it shows that students and writers and the general public love this stuff when it's freed from the constraints of researchers having to communicate with their public through the pages of Physical Review.
But as far as "The System" is concerned, it's an uncontrolled anomaly -- this is a rogue paper that's bypassed conventional peer review and quaility control and has "gone viral" in a way that means that none of the existing quality control portals can block it. People know that it's a big experiment, it's something to do with CERN, and the CERN brand is now big enough for them to consider the result "official", whether or not the paper's been rubberstamped by a journal editor and unnamed review staff.

If you're a journal editor, you must be thinking, crap, maybe these guys don't need us any more. Maybe some journals' systems just aren't fast enough for the modern news cycle. If people on all the major particle physics projects decide to follow that lead and essentially group-self-publish, then maybe the journals will just be left with the dregs.

So there's all sorts of potentially socially revolutionary aspects to this result that go way beyond the physics. Maybe in a year's time, people in this sort of situation will be getting their peer review via Facebook or Diaspora, or via aggregated news sites. It's a pivot-point for a lot of potential changes to our perception of the "proper" way to do science.

Eric
 
Godel had a General Relativity closed loop solution.

Backwards travel in time has been proposed in some quantum models and I believe the concept of a particle having a complex or an imaginary mass (in the mathematical sense) has also been proposed. Either model might be supported by this result, with a big, fat caveat: maybe. It's too early to say.

Warp 1.0000000000000001, Mr. Sulu!

Godel had a General Relativity closed loop solution. This "permitted", provided for, backward time travel.
 
Exactly! The clocks were synchronized the same way at both source and destination, so relative to each other, the clocks were synchronized correctly.

"The OPERA team timed the neutrinos using clocks at each location that were synchronized using GPS (Global Positioning System) signals from a single satellite." -- http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111005/full/news.2011.575.html

ETA: Unless one clock was synchronized with the satellite moving towards it, and the other when the satellite was moving away from it. But what effect would that have? :confused: Plus, didn't they resynchronize the clocks many times when they got such an extraordinary result? Of course they would. And would they synchronize the clocks with the motion of the satellite in opposite directions every time? Maybe, but if so that seems a bit amateurish that they didn't take that into account. 3 years of investigation for what could be a measurement error and they wouldn't see this?

If the satellite is moving approximately in the same direction that the neutrinos are, wouldn't the distance the neutrinos move according to the satellite be length contracted, so therefore the distance the satellite measures should be shortened, shouldn't it? And wouldn't that affect synchronization?
 
Difficult call. See, this result didn't go through peer review, it went onto arXiv,
.....
But as far as "The System" is concerned, it's an uncontrolled anomaly -- this is a rogue paper that's bypassed conventional peer review and quaility control and has "gone viral" in a way that means that none of the existing quality control portals can block it.
.....
If you're a journal editor, you must be thinking, crap, maybe these guys don't need us any more. Maybe some journals' systems just aren't fast enough for the modern news cycle.
.....
So there's all sorts of potentially socially revolutionary aspects to this result that go way beyond the physics. Maybe in a year's time, people in this sort of situation will be getting their peer review via Facebook or Diaspora, or via aggregated news sites. It's a pivot-point for a lot of potential changes to our perception of the "proper" way to do science.

Sorry, but essentially every paper in physics over the last 20 years appeared on the arxiv before it was published. Many of those attracted media attention (although few as much as this).

So this is hardly "anomalous", or "rogue", or "socially revolutionary".
 
Sorry, but essentially every paper in physics over the last 20 years appeared on the arxiv before it was published. Many of those attracted media attention (although few as much as this).

So this is hardly "anomalous", or "rogue", or "socially revolutionary".

But normally when an arXiv-lodged paper gets media attention, the source cited for the paper isn't arXiv, but the journal that is going to be publishing it (or that has already published it).

In this case, there's no supporting journal name attached to the paper, but the CERN "branding" by association is strong enough to give the paper credibility without journal and standard peer-review backing.

As for the strength of the media coverage, I've just finished watching an hour-long special documentary on UK's BBC2 TV channel devoted to the subject, introduced by Marcus de Sautoy.
The unseen BBC continuity voiceover presenter introduced the programme by saying:
" ... According to scientists in CERN [sic] everything we ever knew about physics is up for grabs. "

That's really quite strong coverage for a physics paper that hasn't been published or peer-reviewed, methinks.

The only other comparable example that I can think of is when the Cold Fusion thing kicked off, and P&F decided that there was no way that their result was going to get through peer review, and that the only way to get it looked at was to bypass the system and tell people about it directly.
I think that a lot of physics folk were quietly satisfied when P&F weren't successful, and there seemed to be an attitude that they got what they deserved for trying to bypass the system.

But with this case, there's a stronger sympathy for their going public without a sponsoring journal behind them, because that honestly seems to be the fastest way for them to get their experiment closely scrutinised, and for them to find the error that they think is probably in there somewhere (if it exists). There's a much stronger feeling that they're probably going about things in the right way (although, obviously, not everybody agrees).
 
But normally when an arXiv-lodged paper gets media attention, the source cited for the paper isn't arXiv, but the journal that is going to be publishing it (or that has already published it).

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've seen many, many counterexamples to that over the last decade.

In this case, there's no supporting journal name attached to the paper, but the CERN "branding" by association is strong enough to give the paper credibility without journal and standard peer-review backing.

Some journalists have the sense to realize that unpublished papers are more likely to be wrong than published ones, particularly when they are making revolutionary claims.

By the way, the paper doesn't really have that much to do with CERN. That's one of several things that's been consistently mis-reported. And something like half the people in the experimental collaboration declined to put their names on the paper.

That's really quite strong coverage for a physics paper that hasn't been published or peer-reviewed, methinks.

Indeed - I'm not disagreeing that the media coverage has been unusually intense. I'm disagreeing with your assertion that unpublished papers getting media attention is unusual - that's just false - or that journals have some kind of lock on what gets attention.

The truth is that most physicists and some journalists read the arxiv daily and pay little attention to what ends up getting published in journals (since that happens months after the paper is available on arxiv), and that's the way it's been for 15 years or more in many subfields. Physicists have their own professional judgement to rely on, and that's often better than that of a journal (especially because wrong papers can get rejected multiple times and still end up published somewhere due to a lax reviewer).
 
But normally when an arXiv-lodged paper gets media attention, the source cited for the paper isn't arXiv, but the journal that is going to be publishing it (or that has already published it).

Hardly. Most of the time, you upload an article to the arxiv when you submit it to a journal. (Indeed, when you're submitting articles to many journals, you don't even need to upload the submission to them: you just say "I'd like to submit last night's upload, 1011.9999 (hep-ex), for consideration for Phys Rev C."

That's really quite strong coverage for a physics paper that hasn't been published or peer-reviewed, methinks.

Remember what peer review means.

a) You see a paper on the ArXiV. You are busy, but you have time for interesting papers.
b) You decide to read the paper.
c) You finish reading the paper. Do you feel like you just wasted your time?
d) Do you wish that the your officemate had read the paper had said "Skip it, it's not really worth your time ..."
d1) " ... it's got glaring mistakes."
d2) " ... it doesn't report anything important."
d3) " ... it doesn't contain adequate information to even begin evaluating its truth or falsehood."
e) If so: this is a paper that should not pass peer review.
f) If not: this is a paper that should pass peer review, and indeed it just did.

Peer review does NOT mean:

d4) " ... I'm one of the five world GPS experts qualified to double-check their analysis in more detail than they did themselves; I found a factor of 2 omitted from the antiferromagnetic polhode jitter parallax, so the result is wrong."
 
Well something weird is going on if the speed of light is not found to be constant

Harry Potter and Hermione have the Time-Turner, which apparently part of Godel's workshop...


Well something weird is going on if the speed of light is not found to be constant.

What would be significant about the CERN finding were it to hold up would be not so much that particles exceeded c, but it might mean c could no longer be viewed as a limit, no longer a constant.

What makes "the speed of light" special is not the number per se, whatever it is, but the fact that it is unchanging, that it is a universal constant.
 
d3 in this case :)

People (some, not all) seem to believe that the authors have asked the scientific community for help finding any errors. That's sort of partly true, but very far from being completely true. If they really wanted to know whether there's a mistake and to find it, they would need to give other people enough information to check what they've done. What's frustrating about the preprint is that (especially in certain parts - related to the statistics) there is only a very brief outline of what they did, and you can't possibly tell whether their method was valid for that. There's some more detail in the cited PhD thesis, but it's not clear whether they applied the same methods in their final analysis.

In my opinion, there's no way this should be taken really seriously until they have at least released the raw data, so others can do their own statistical analysis. I think that nowadays this is something that a top journal would _require_. (At least, Science claims to require it; whether they do in practice I'm not sure.)

ETA: In the talk he says they've been checking things for 6 months. I would expect that part of that process would involve getting the different sub-groups to write down a detailed analysis of their own part. It might not be polished, but if you are serious about getting other people to check things, why not release an appendix with all this analysis that they surely have by now?
 
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Well something weird is going on if the speed of light is not found to be constant.
That is bif if. And c is constant so far, with Heisenberg's indeterminancy.
What would be significant about the CERN finding were it to hold up would be not so much that particles exceeded c, but it might mean c could no longer be viewed as a limit, no longer a constant.
If, if, and if...
What makes "the speed of light" special is not the number per se, whatever it is, but the fact that it is unchanging, that it is a universal constant.

Some things are they way they are...
 
Forgive me if this has been asked somewhere else, or if it's just a dumb question, I'm not anywhere near being a scientist and I haven't found the answer with Google...

Crazy idea.
I read that neutrinos somehow violated the laws of relativity on the quantum level (??) http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2011/09/22/neutrinos-and-quantum-gravity/
I'll just get to the question...
Are neutrinos affected by gravity? (that's the crazy bit, if you didn't notice.) if not, might these FTL neutrinos be taking a "straighter then straight" line through curved space? Getting to the finish line quicker then the "wandering" photons without actually going faster then light?

Just a thought...

BTW, why do I always get bumped off before I finish typing my question??
 
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Are neutrinos affected by gravity? (that's the crazy bit, if you didn't notice.)

There is nothing crazy about expecting neutrinos to be affected by gravity. The quantum gravity aspect is presumably that neutrinos of varying energy levels might be able to "feel the edges" of a quantized gravity field. The presumed/postulated quantization of gravity is too low energy to be detected by most massive particles.
 
Are neutrinos affected by gravity?

Yes.

if not, might these FTL neutrinos be taking a "straighter then straight" line through curved space? Getting to the finish line quicker then the "wandering" photons without actually going faster then light?

You're correct that if neutrinos somehow weren't affected by gravity, they'd pass through regions with non-zero gravitational fields faster. Put another way, gravity slows things down. But even if neutrinos weren't affected by gravity - which would go against everything we know about gravity, since its most basic feature is that it acts on all forms of matter and energy equally - the speedup would be much too small to account for the OPERA results.
 
BTW, why do I always get bumped off before I finish typing my question??

I had the same problem when I first joined, when you sign in just click the thing that says something like "stay signed in"... don't recall the exact words. Otherwise it signs you out after some ridiculously short time span.

Of course, when you want to sign out you'll have to actually click "log out".
 

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