Put in jail for speech. Yes, in the USA.

[Beerina]

A drop in "median household income" could be due to factors other than an encrappifying economy. There could be an influx of immigrants and/or a bulge of younger people looking for jobs. People starting out or with poorer edumication tend to earn less, and may sway the average, even as the average "40 year old who's lived there all his life" may continue to earn more and more during his career.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics", since we're quoting Twain here...

 

[fuelair]

It looks like the teachers were trying to get back at this guy for spilling the beans.


http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=489479

These poor teachers only making these small salaries plus fringe benefits:



I wonder were the money comes from to pay these educators?

I know, I know! From the taxes of the people making $45,000!


Some of the fringe benefits are more that the median household income. That is two workers by the way.

Poor underpayed educators.

Administrators are not educators. They may or not have been educators but.....

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Less then the median household income. And is that salary before or after accounting for the fact that they only work 2/3 of the year?

You can look at that several ways. While a part time job might be nice for some people, not being able to work full time because your job only lasts 10 months can also mean that is your annual salary not by choice. I don't think teachers should be left with summer jobs at McDs or Jamba Juice. They are not eligible (I don't think) for unemployment every summer as one would who was laid off a couple months of every year.

I agree some work a light schedule though many argue they put in a lot more time. Some do, some don't, that's human nature.

 

[CaptainManacles]

You can look at that several ways. While a part time job might be nice for some people, not being able to work full time because your job only lasts 10 months can also mean that is your annual salary not by choice. I don't think teachers should be left with summer jobs at McDs or Jamba Juice. They are not eligible (I don't think) for unemployment every summer as one would who was laid off a couple months of every year.

I agree some work a light schedule though many argue they put in a lot more time. Some do, some don't, that's human nature.

That's a good point. It's a complex issue, but ultimately they chose the job knowing how much it's probably going to pay so at some point in time they think the benefits of that job outweigh other options.

If any arguement is to be made, I think it would be that paying teachers more will likely get us higher quality teachers in the long run.

 

[JoeEllison]

Less then the median household income. And is that salary before or after accounting for the fact that they only work 2/3 of the year?

Do you also account for the fact that teachers work very much more than a 40-hour week? I'm sure it all balances out.

 

[CaptainManacles]

Do you also account for the fact that teachers work very much more than a 40-hour week? I'm sure it all balances out.

Laughable. They work 6 hour days at most schools, with grading and tests, many teachers don't even make 40. And most salaried people work more then a 40-hour week. It hardly balances out. It's an easy job and an easy degree and you get paid appropriately, if not more then they should simply because of public preasure.

 

[rwguinn]

Laughable. They work 6 hour days at most schools, with grading and tests, many teachers don't even make 40. And most salaried people work more then a 40-hour week. It hardly balances out. It's an easy job and an easy degree and you get paid appropriately, if not more then they should simply because of public preasure.

never tried it, have ya?
I am not a teacher, I yama ninjaneer--but I have been on committees and done my time with them.
You have a very perverted view.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I have a few friends who are teachers. With grading, creating lesson plans and assignments, they work many more than forty hours a week. Summers are for preparing lessons for the fall (unpaid I might add).

 

[Kestrel]

I think the most frustrating part of this affair is that the IP company gave up the teacher's information without requiring the police to apply for a subpoena - a minimal test. It's also frustrating that the police failed to show any respect for the confidential information they received or for this guy's reputation.

If the Internet provider had asked for a warrant before turning over the information, the police would have had a hard time convincing a judge that this teachers sarcastic comment was a criminal act. But since the Internet provider cared nothing about privacy, they simply gave the police what they demanded.

Is this really any different from Yahoo helping the Chinese track down people for the crime of speaking out against the government?

 

[CaptainManacles]

I have a few friends who are teachers. With grading, creating lesson plans and assignments, they work many more than forty hours a week. Summers are for preparing lessons for the fall (unpaid I might add).

I have a few friends who are teachers as well, and while they put in 40 hours, they admit that most can easily get away with not, and it's certainly not more then 40. Summers are for preparing lessons maybe your first year or two, but most of the material repeats itself, and most jobs you have to do study outside paid time.

If teaching is so rough and the pay is so low, why do so many people choose it as a career?

 

[332nd]

I have a few friends who are teachers as well, and while they put in 40 hours, they admit that most can easily get away with not, and it's certainly not more then 40. Summers are for preparing lessons maybe your first year or two, but most of the material repeats itself, and most jobs you have to do study outside paid time.

If teaching is so rough and the pay is so low, why do so many people choose it as a career?

Because they have it in them help other people in some way. Like Policemen, Firemen, Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen....

Just a guess, you've never taught have you?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

If teaching is so rough and the pay is so low, why do so many people choose it as a career?

I am not a teacher yet, so I can't really comment on the other stuff, but I chose it as a career because I've kinda always wanted to be one and I like it.

I really think I can help kids, and I think it makes for a wonderful opportunity for social good.[/sappy loser]

But the pay is rather low when you consider that you have to get degrees to become a teacher, and with other majors you get more money.

And my school is sending student teachers to places that had school shootings .

 

[fuelair]

I have a few friends who are teachers as well, and while they put in 40 hours, they admit that most can easily get away with not, and it's certainly not more then 40. Summers are for preparing lessons maybe your first year or two, but most of the material repeats itself, and most jobs you have to do study outside paid time.

If teaching is so rough and the pay is so low, why do so many people choose it as a career?

Some of us do it because we like helping other people learn. Your comment about the lack of yearly (at least)change demonstrates a group of possible situations: You could live in a state where they develop a 20 year plan for each subject and do not change it regardless of changes int the actual field or the emphasis in the real world on different aspects of it. You could live in a state where they developed a standard test that they plan to use on each student of that subject for the next 20 years - regardless of any changes from the curriculum group(s). You could live in a state where teachers are not required to attend programs to keep them cognizant of/using new information, procedures etc. every year - or they are not evaluated by administrators once or more times per year.
Problem is, I do not know of (and would not want to work in) any state like that - though Texas seems to be trying to go that way in Biology right now.
I don't teach all aspects of Chemistry the same way I did last year, much less 5 years ago - both because of FCAT and because there have been improvements in what we know about several aspects of Chemistry - as well as some changes in the order parts of it should be taught (the only one of those I have some disagreement with).

 

[fuelair]

Less then the median household income. And is that salary before or after accounting for the fact that they only work 2/3 of the year?

Actually most school systems have school for 10 months nowadays(not counting a one month summer school). That would make it closer to 83% than 67%. Even in the old 9 month system that was 75% rather than 67%.

 

[CaptainManacles]

Some of us do it because we like helping other people learn.

Which is a nice benefit of the job. Teaching is probably more fun and rewarding then something like digging ditches. However, ditches still need to be dug. We pay people disproportionally high for doing something like ditch digging compared to the educational and skill requirements. We pay teachers disproportionally low because their job is fun and very rewarding.

Your comment about the lack of yearly (at least)change demonstrates a group of possible situations: You could live in a state where they develop a 20 year plan for each subject and do not change it regardless of changes int the actual field or the emphasis in the real world on different aspects of it. You could live in a state where they developed a standard test that they plan to use on each student of that subject for the next 20 years - regardless of any changes from the curriculum group(s). You could live in a state where teachers are not required to attend programs to keep them cognizant of/using new information, procedures etc. every year - or they are not evaluated by administrators once or more times per year.
Problem is, I do not know of (and would not want to work in) any state like that - though Texas seems to be trying to go that way in Biology right now.
I don't teach all aspects of Chemistry the same way I did last year, much less 5 years ago - both because of FCAT and because there have been improvements in what we know about several aspects of Chemistry - as well as some changes in the order parts of it should be taught (the only one of those I have some disagreement with).

Well, the other possibility is my friends aren’t highschool chemistry teachers. They may have to update their lesson plans once in a blue moon to account for new general teaching ideas, but for the most part the material doesn’t change. It doesn’t require 40 hours of work every week from the first day they get off for summer break to the first day they get back, and I’m dubious that is even the case with you.

And still, all of this ignores my point that MOST jobs require you to work more then 40 hours and to study after hours without pay. If anything, teaching requires LESS of this then most jobs, besides that the base required hours they work is less then 40.

 

[CaptainManacles]

Actually most school systems have school for 10 months nowadays(not counting a one month summer school). That would make it closer to 83% than 67%. Even in the old 9 month system that was 75% rather than 67%.

most school systems have school for 180 days. Accounting for that including weekends and being generous, that's 2/3rd of the year.

 

[bignickel]

Can a portion of this thread be split off to the Education forum?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Well, the other possibility is my friends aren’t highschool chemistry teachers. They may have to update their lesson plans once in a blue moon to account for new general teaching ideas, but for the most part the material doesn’t change. It doesn’t require 40 hours of work every week from the first day they get off for summer break to the first day they get back, and I’m dubious that is even the case with you.

And still, all of this ignores my point that MOST jobs require you to work more then 40 hours and to study after hours without pay. If anything, teaching requires LESS of this then most jobs, besides that the base required hours they work is less then 40.

Evidence?

MYTH: The school day is only six or seven hours, so it's only fair that teachers make less than "full-time" professionals.

FACT: Other professionals hardly have the monopoly on the long workday, and many studies conclude that teachers work as long or longer than the typical 40-hour workweek.

Six or seven hours is the "contracted" workday, but unlike in other professions, the expectation for teachers is that much required work will take place at home, at night and on weekends. For teachers, the day isn't over when the dismissal bell rings.

Teachers spend an average of 50 hours per week on instructional duties, including an average of 12 hours each week on non-compensated school-related activities such as grading papers, bus duty, and club advising.

When the Center for Teaching Quality studied teachers' workdays in Clark County, NV, it found that not only did most teachers work additional hours outside of the school day, but that "Very little of this time is spent working directly with students in activities such as tutoring or coaching; far more time is reported on preparation, grading papers, parent conferences, and attending meetings."
MYTH: Teachers have summers off.

FACT: Students have summers off. Teachers spend summers working second jobs, teaching summer school, and taking classes for certification renewal or to advance their careers.

Most full-time employees in the private sector receive training on company time at company expense, while many teachers spend the eight weeks of summer break earning college hours, at their own expense.

School begins in late August or early September, but teachers are back before the start of school and are busy stocking supplies, setting up their classrooms, and preparing for the year's curriculum.

Linky.

Oh, and another one, but I don't know if you only want US data.

THE TEACHERS' WEEK
The formal hours established for teaching amount to 27.5 hours per week, plus an overall amount of discretionary hours' work which brings the working week up to 35 hours. The range of hours reported ran from the statutory minimum to a handful of people who recorded over 60 hours work in the week surveyed.

Overall, the response tended towards the heavier end of workload. For the respondents at this early stage in the year, the mean of hours worked in the seven day period surveyed was 42.5 hours. This was seven and a half hours over the 35 hour week. In effect, they had worked a six-day week. These hours excluded any time taken as a break during the school day (such time is not part of teachers' contracted hours). However, the 42.5 hours included work done during breaks. The actual break time taken over the school week averaged out at 3.7 hours, or forty-four minutes a day. Work also expanded into evenings or into weekends (though people tried to avoid this). Only 12% of the sample (69 people) recorded no school work at the weekend. On average work time at the weekend was three hours. These figures simply give an idea of the length of the working week. The nature of the work and of the demands made are what make these hours reasonable or unreasonable to the people who work them.

Linky.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Can a portion of this thread be split off to the Education forum?

Oops .

 

[fuelair]

Which is a nice benefit of the job. Teaching is probably more fun and rewarding then something like digging ditches. However, ditches still need to be dug. We pay people disproportionally high for doing something like ditch digging compared to the educational and skill requirements. We pay teachers disproportionally low because their job is fun and very rewarding.



Well, the other possibility is my friends aren’t highschool chemistry teachers. They may have to update their lesson plans once in a blue moon to account for new general teaching ideas, but for the most part the material doesn’t change. It doesn’t require 40 hours of work every week from the first day they get off for summer break to the first day they get back, and I’m dubious that is even the case with you.

And still, all of this ignores my point that MOST jobs require you to work more then 40 hours and to study after hours without pay. If anything, teaching requires LESS of this then most jobs, besides that the base required hours they work is less then 40.

Actually, unless employment laws have changed (possible) since I last had occasion to check most jobs cannot require you to take and pay for classes after you have been hired (if required, they must pay). The major exception to that is teachers who must (in Florida, anyway) have 120 hours of inservice credit to recertify each five years. Also, I am not sure about the teachers who you know, but, again in Florida, there are few subjects where the changes I noted do not occur almost annually-and that is definite in the academic classes (math, L.A, Science and SS as well as the classes required for FCAT non-passers (remedial math and LA)). And, the pay for teachers is based on the school year, not the 12 month year - some teachers have there checks reduced monthly so they are spread out over the year (i.e. they get summer checks) but that is a deferment of the money and technically saves the school system funds at the cost of interest for the teacher (I have half a MBA - so I catch that catch in it!).

And, just as a side note, enjoying your job is not something that should have any influence on your income from it - in either direction.

And, as a second side note, each day I arrive at school at 6:30 (+/-10 min.) at which time I have to park fairly far from the office door because the Teachers lot is already almost full. Though school doesn't start until 7:20 for students our official start time is 7:10 - but we are ready to go by ca. 6:40-6:50 (at least in my hallway). Other than 25 minutes for lunch (and don't get me started on our so-called planning time) we are teaching until 1:50. As the students leave, we are headed to near daily meetings (or parent conferences after which we head to meetings. The meetings are supposed to end at 2:40 and so far this year, 3 of them have - usually though they end from 3-3:20. They are educational in nature ("college" meetings, department meetings, Area of Concern meetings, subject meetings (3 a week in my case), special meetings). Most of my grading is done at home, or during lunch (the simpler stuff). Compared to some others, my day is light - when I leave each day there is still half a parking lot of teacher tag cars.

Obviously this is anecdotal - but it applies at the school I am at now, the one I moved from three years ago (too far from my house-tolls/gas had just started rising from 1.75) and the one I was at for four years before that so I suspect it is the norm for this county anyway.