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Punitive Damages And Tort Reform

How about adding the amount spent defending against a law suit to the punitive damages?

Exxon spends a billion defending against the next Valdez-type screw-up, the plaintifs get a billion on top of everything else they win.
 
How about adding the amount spent defending against a law suit to the punitive damages?

Exxon spends a billion defending against the next Valdez-type screw-up, the plaintifs get a billion on top of everything else they win.

I dunno. . .I'd almost rather a requirement that lawyers work on spec. If they spend a lot of time defending Exxon (as opposed to negotiating a settlement), they shouldn't be able to "win" even if their client loses.
 
How about adding the amount spent defending against a law suit to the punitive damages?

Exxon spends a billion defending against the next Valdez-type screw-up, the plaintifs get a billion on top of everything else they win.

So we handicap defendants by forcing them to get cheap lawyers? If someone MUST pay more shouldn't it be the plaintiff? After all, the defendant is assumed innocent.
 
WTF? I've been to hundreds of pot luck dinners. Nobody sick, nor ill.

What are you onto here?

But being rare doesn't keep it from being an issue when it does come up. It's a question of who bears the risk.

Heck, why not waivers all around and participants are attending at their own risk?
 
I dunno. . .I'd almost rather a requirement that lawyers work on spec. If they spend a lot of time defending Exxon (as opposed to negotiating a settlement), they shouldn't be able to "win" even if their client loses.

I'm pretty sure defense lawyers for big companies work on retainer or salary. They have no insentive to stretch a case out beyond necessity since it means more work for the same pay.

You are thinking of plaintiff's lawyers. But they work on contingency for the most part anyway so the point is moot.
 
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But being rare doesn't keep it from being an issue when it does come up. It's a question of who bears the risk.

Heck, why not waivers all around and participants are attending at their own risk?

That would work, barring some really really really gross negligence.
 
I'm pretty sure defense lawyers for big companies work on retainer or salary. They have no insentive [sic] to stretch a case out beyond necessity since it means more work for the same pay.
The point was to make a disincentive for defense lawyers dragging out a trial when their client is at fault. The fact that a gigantic corporation has deep pockets shouldn't give them a better shake in court.

You are thinking of plaintiff's lawyers. But they work on contingency for the most part anyway so the point is moot.
Not for gigantic corporations they don't. As you said, they have their own lawyers on salary or retainer. The contingency fee thing is mostly for us little people. (So even if a jury awards large damages to a class of plaintiffs, the lawyers get a big slice of that first--I think it's typically 30%.)
 
The point was to make a disincentive for defense lawyers dragging out a trial when their client is at fault. The fact that a gigantic corporation has deep pockets shouldn't give them a better shake in court.
The problem is that this presumes that the issues being litigated are clear cut. Of the many dozens of lawsuits I have been involved in (as a witness), in the majority of cases both sides were absolutely convinced of the validity of their positions. Should we punish defendants for pursuing what they might honestly believe to be a righteous case?
 
There already is. More work, same pay.

The corporate lawyers are on salary. They get paid whether there is a suit going on or not. If the losing defendant gets dinged for the amount that they spent defending against a legitimate complaint, they basicly have to pay twice as much for losing lawyers on their staff.
 
There should obviously be a difference in the way that an event like a potluck dinner and a meal in a chasin restaurant are treated. The consumer has more control over the chain of events at a potluck. He is aware of there being more of a risk and assumes such risks.

Nobody is earning their living preparing baked beans for a church social.

When you walk into a chain restaurant, you have a rerasonable expectation that, in return for making such a good living from public patronage, the management is taking every precaution against salmonella in your salad.

If the chain decides they need to save money by cutting back on supervisory positions, especially related to food safety, I would hardly think that they are entitled to any of the extra profits if that allows a tainted pan of lettuce to hit the buffet. They should actually pay out more than they saved.

And if they want to be jerks about it and make it hard for an injured party to gain compensation, they should have to pay for that, too.
 
But being rare doesn't keep it from being an issue when it does come up. It's a question of who bears the risk.

Heck, why not waivers all around and participants are attending at their own risk?


It's not so simple. The club I'm in* has everyone sign waivers at every event we attend, whether or not there is food served, whether or not there are athletic activities going on, whether or not there is some other dangerous activity. We also carry a multi-million dollar liability policy of the sort Drkitten said would solve all of our problems. It doesn't.

At the point where there is an injury, all those sorts of things get thrown into the mix in determining who has to pay, but there's no guarantee. Continued in my next reply, to Lefty.

*Not the Cub Scouts, or my chess tournaments. I participate in a number of activities that use semi-public facilities like community centers and churches.
 
It's not so simple. The club I'm in*

...

*Not the Cub Scouts, or my chess tournaments. I participate in a number of activities that use semi-public facilities like community centers and churches.


Dude, the first rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club!
 
There should obviously be a difference in the way that an event like a potluck dinner and a meal in a chasin restaurant are treated. The consumer has more control over the chain of events at a potluck. He is aware of there being more of a risk and assumes such risks.

Nobody is earning their living preparing baked beans for a church social.

This common sense approach seems absolutely perfect to me. However, it isn't the situation in the law as it exists today, for reasons Drk explained.

The problem is that if someone gets sick from the potluck, that potluck probably took place in a church or a community center. That church may rent space in their building to community groups. If they do, they may be treated exactly like a commercial entity. After all, they are collecting revenue, right? So it may be said that they are acting like a business, and that means if they see an activity with a forseeable risk, such as eating baked beans, it is their job to mitigate such risk. They can be held liable if they don't.

As Drkitten put it, it's their job to make sure that people like me take food safety seriously. At least, that's what the law says.

In practice, what we see more and more is not actually a wave of lawsuits against Cub Scouts. What we see, though, is a lot of insurance companies that have told churches, community centers, etc. that those facilities will have to pay more for insurance if they allow food to be prepared or served in their facilities. The churches decide to save the money, and institute "no food" policies. Even for clubs that carry insurance, they just decide it isn't worth the hassle. They aren't really renting out their hall as a commercial activity anyway. They just consider it part of their duty to the community. If they can get sued for it, to heck with it.

I can tell you for certain that it's a lot harder to find sites for activities like club banquets, chess tournaments, and Cub Scout potlucks than it used to be, and liability insurance is the major cause.
 
There already is. More work, same pay.
That's only if they're on salary. If they're billing by the hour--which is usually the case, the incentive is to draw things out as long as possible and attempt every possible permutation of every legal theory in a lost-cause defense. If they get lucky and win, they save their client a bundle. If they lose--oh well, they tried their best and they'll get paid anyway.

Anyway, I'm not serious about this idea. I don't see how it could be done.

It's the same problem in criminal law. We can guarantee a minimum level of legal counsel for anyone accused of a crime, but the wealthy can spend as much as they like defending their case. (I forget how much the OJ trial cost L.A.--since spending a fortune on defense means the prosecution has to spend a like amount of time and resources.)

I think the wealthy will always enjoy better justice than us commoners. Further, I think the real problem with the large corporations is the legal fiction of corporate personhood, but that's really another topic I suppose.
 
It's not so simple. The club I'm in* has everyone sign waivers at every event we attend, whether or not there is food served, whether or not there are athletic activities going on, whether or not there is some other dangerous activity. We also carry a multi-million dollar liability policy of the sort Drkitten said would solve all of our problems. It doesn't.

That's because the magic word isn't "insurance," but "indemnify."

If you're carrying insurance, that just means that someone's got your back if you get sued. What you need to do is to indemnify the hall, which means that you will offer to cover THEIR bills if they get sued as a result of your event. So it's not that someone else has your back, but that you've got the hall's back.

Not willing to do that? Why should they put themselves at risk for you, then?
 

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