Public Sector Unions

[carlitos]

Show me a union member earning more than $100k a year, and i'll agree with you that they are getting paid too much.

First, a reminder that this topic is about public sector unions, ok? Not "unions."

With apologies for linking the NY Post, but I'm busy and can't look for too long. Note that most earning over $100k are educators.

ALBANY -- Even as the national economy tanked, a six-figure tsunami swept the state payroll last year, with the number of workers who earn more than $100,000 surging 28 percent, The Post has learned.

The ranks of state employees hauling down six-figure salaries swelled to 20,416 in 2008, up from 15,990 the previous year, according to a Post analysis of salary data.

Those top earners made up nearly 8 percent of the state workforce, up from just over 2 percent at the start of the decade.

...


CUNY and SUNY led the list of six-figure salaries, with a combined 7,000 employees who made more than $100,000 a year.

...

The six-figure surge will likely continue. Union employees got a 3 percent hike this year after labor leaders beat back Paterson's call for a one-time wage freeze.

Lots of private sector employees would have liked a 3% hike this year. That's better than I did.

Here's another example from Massachussetts:

Some troopers' pay exceeds governor's
Shifts at airport, turnpike lucrative
By Suzanne Smalley and Matt Carroll, Globe Staff | March 11, 2007

Nearly 6 in 10 State Police officers who work full time at Logan International Airport or on the Massachusetts Turnpike made more last year than either the governor, the state attorney general, or the Suffolk district attorney.

Like all troopers, those assigned to patrol Logan and the turnpike profited by lucrative construction details, overtime shifts, and educational bonuses. But unlike all other troopers, those at Logan and the turnpike received daily reimbursements for driving their own cars to work. And they benefited last year from extra work directing traffic around detours caused by the fatal Big Dig tunnel collapse and providing security at the airport during an elevated terrorism alert.

Of the 320 troopers permanently assigned to Logan and the turnpike, at least 185 -- or 58 percent -- made more last year than the $140,535 governor's salary and at least 37 topped $200,000 in earnings, according to a Globe analysis of payroll information obtained under the state public records law.

But show me a union member earning slightly more than industry average because of the use of collective bargaining, and I will show you a system that is attempting to redress the balance of 90% of society's wealth being in the hands of 10% of the population.

Again, we're discussing public sector unions. If you want to "redress the balance" by increasing the size of the beaucratic class, and giving them outsized raises, you should probably realize that this is the French model that I argued against in my opening post. What percent of the economy do you want to socialize, in order to achieve this goal?

 

[carlitos]

The two are not mutually exclusive. Recent graduate are generally able to move around quite easily, but this becomes much more difficult after you buy a house and start a family freedom move is significantly reduced.

Again, I was talking about the suburbs bidding against the city schools. You don't have to "move around" for this labor market to work.

 

[WildCat]

You should read up on correlation vs causation...

The teachers always promise the kids will do better if they just get more money. We gave them the money, we didn't get better educated kids.

The poor conditions in Chicago schools that cause such poor results in its students also represent some of the worst working conditions for teachers in the US. If you want to attract anybody to work in some of the poorest conditions for that profession you need to pay the highest wages.

We also need to be able to weed out the bad teachers, but that's nearly impossible to do. Would you like to guess why that is?

 

[Kestrel]

What the hell are you talking about? We've had nothing but tax increases here in Illinois.

The economic storm that hit Illinois started on Wall Street. That caused a drop in state revenue. Your state, like so many others requires a balanced budget, so they have to cut spending.

In earlier recessions, the Federal government would help out by sending revenue to the states. Some of that was done in 2009, but in 2010 the Republicans gained another Senator and used their filibuster power to block any further assistance to the states. Setting the stage for deeper budget cuts at the state level. Forcing the state to cut spending and lay off workers. Adding somewhat to the economic problems in your state.

John Maynard Keynes^WP told us decades ago that during an economic downturn, the government should increase spending. Paying down the debt when the economy recovers. Cutting down on jobs programs when the private sector takes up the slack. But the Tea Party Republicans in Washington don't believe Keynes any more than they believe Darwin.

 

[WildCat]

The economic storm that hit Illinois started on Wall Street. That caused a drop in state revenue. Your state, like so many others requires a balanced budget, so they have to cut spending.

You really don't know what the hell you're talking about. Illinois was going belly up long before the recession hit. The recession just delivered the knock-out blow.

All our light rail and roads and bridges didn't just start crumbling in the last 3 years. Illinois' plight is the result of corruption and cronyism and kicking the can down the road. And the public sector labor unions have played a big part in all of that.

 

[Kestrel]

You really don't know what the hell you're talking about. Illinois was going belly up long before the recession hit. The recession just delivered the knock-out blow.

All our light rail and roads and bridges didn't just start crumbling in the last 3 years. Illinois' plight is the result of corruption and cronyism and kicking the can down the road. And the public sector labor unions have played a big part in all of that.

What percentage of your state budget do you believe is consumed by graft and corruption? Do have any real data to back this up?

BTW - The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[carlitos]

What percentage of your state budget do you believe is consumed by graft and corruption? Do have any real data to back this up?

BTW - The plural of anecdote is not data.

Kestrel,
Do you have ANYTHING AT ALL to add about public sector unions? Anything?

 

[Reginald Hobbes]

Is there any reason unions shouldn't work for their own self-interest?

No.
Is there any reason why the politicians (i.e. the Wisconsin 14) should actively work for the interests of the union over those of the state as a whole?

 

[Beerina]

John Maynard Keynes^WP told us decades ago that during an economic downturn, the government should increase spending. Paying down the debt when the economy recovers. Cutting down on jobs programs when the private sector takes up the slack. But the Tea Party Republicans in Washington don't believe Keynes any more than they believe Darwin.

Congress and the states manage to increase spending in good times, too. "Always just a little bit more" is their mantra.

If they were intelligent, they would not just pay off debt in good times, but save enough in good times to over-spend in bad times. Then they wouldn't even have to borrow. Note this would also generate far less uncertainty in business planning as taxes, or borrowing, wouldn't be gyrating around making people worry their taxes would need to go up.

But when your spending during good times approaches what the US was spending in the middle of WWII, and then things go bad, well, look about you for the result.

 

[WildCat]

What percentage of your state budget do you believe is consumed by graft and corruption?

100%

Do have any real data to back this up?

BTW - The plural of anecdote is not data.

Yes, the Illinois Attorney General doesn't even consider rooting out legislative corruption to be part of her job. If the Feds don't find it and prosecute it, no one will.

 

[Kestrel]

100%

If 100% of all government funds go to graft and corruption, does the tooth fairy pay the police, firemen and teachers?

 

[Kestrel]

Kestrel,
Do you have ANYTHING AT ALL to add about public sector unions? Anything?

Earlier in this thread, it was claimed that public service union members make more than average workers. The problem with this is that government workers are better educated than the average worker and a greater percentage of them are working in managerial or professional positions. Public service workers actually make somewhat less than they would in private sector jobs that require equivalent training or skills.

 

[WildCat]

If 100% of all government funds go to graft and corruption, does the tooth fairy pay the police, firemen and teachers?

There are no state teachers or firemen.

Every cent of the state budget goes through the corrupt legislature, whose sole reason for being is to enrich their cronies like Bill Daley and Bob Kjellander and Bill Cellini.

 

[WildCat]

Earlier in this thread, it was claimed that public service union members make more than average workers. The problem with this is that government workers are better educated than the average worker and a greater percentage of them are working in managerial or professional positions. Public service workers actually make somewhat less than they would in private sector jobs that require equivalent training or skills.

Ah, the old "comparable worth" BS.

 

[Teemu]

What percentage of your state budget do you believe is consumed by graft and corruption? Do have any real data to back this up?

BTW - The plural of anecdote is not data.

Milwaukee, WI school voucher program does better job than the public schools with less than half the money, so money is wasted a lot in public system.

http://educationresearchreport.blogspot.com/2011/01/milwaukee-voucher-program-boosts.html

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

So you're looking at one isolated incidence? That's excellent logic.

 

[Kestrel]

Milwaukee, WI school voucher program does better job than the public schools with less than half the money, so money is wasted a lot in public system.

http://educationresearchreport.blogspot.com/2011/01/milwaukee-voucher-program-boosts.html

1. Does the voucher pay the full cost of education, or do the parents kick in as well?

2. Do the private schools have to accept every kid, or do they dump the tough cases back on the public system?

 

[Teemu]

So you're looking at one isolated incidence? That's excellent logic.

Private sector can do most things more efficiently under healthy incentives, that's kinda no brainer.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/08/26/how-private-fire-departments-success-undermines-obamacare/

“Our first-year contract was $300,000, and we were providing the same level of service the consultant said would cost $1 million,” Jensen said. “We continue to provide service as good as that of our municipal neighbors, but because we are private, we can operate more efficiently. We save 30 to 40 percent over what a similar municipal department would cost to operate.”
The savings come mainly in personnel. The fire district has 14 full-time firefighters and 28 paid-on-call firefighters, all of whom are privately employed. None is a union member.
“We don’t pay the insane salaries that our municipal neighbors pay,” Jensen said. “Our benefits are more in line with traditional industry. We are non-union, which gives us a lot more flexibility in dealing with our employees. Salaries and benefits are the big savings, but we [also] have a shop where we can rebuild and refurbish fire apparatus for our own use.
“We save money in purchasing almost anything a fire department would use, just by shopping around. We’re very cost-conscious. We watch every penny we spend,” Jensen added.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Again. From one isolated point to a trend is a fallacy.

ETA: Why are you linking the Heritage Foundation?

 

[Teemu]

1. Does the voucher pay the full cost of education, or do the parents kick in as well?

2. Do the private schools have to accept every kid, or do they dump the tough cases back on the public system?

The income for participation to that voucher program is 175% of poverty federal poverty level, so participants certainly can't afford to pay additional $5-6k out of their own pockets. There are private schools who cater to people with special needs like autism, but they won't put up with those "tough cases" who are just trouble makers. Most people have relatively high trouble making threshold, they wont start to make trouble until enough people around them are. Riot police is supposed to recognize those people who start to make trouble and instigate it and get them before the G20 protest gets too violent. Kicking out students with trouble-making threshold of 0-2 persons from public schools would probably make society be better off in general.