Public Sector Unions

[Leif Roar]

Seems that the other districts would eventually compete for the teaching resources, driving up demand? Not sure.

Possibly, depending on the structure of local government, but in the end the school districts are sub-divisions of the state government and there would be nothing stopping the state government from telling its school districts to "stop competing on wages -- you're driving the total cost up."

 

[stokes234]

Thanks for thoughtful responses I roll my eyes at you to indicate sarcasm

My point was to highlight that, when taking scale into account, union members are not fatcats by a long stretch. Show me a union member earning more than $100k a year, and i'll agree with you that they are getting paid too much. I would hope that in return you would agree that bankers should not be earning millions and tens of millions for playing dice with the economy, but I somehow doubt you would.

But show me a union member earning slightly more than industry average because of the use of collective bargaining, and I will show you a system that is attempting to redress the balance of 90% of society's wealth being in the hands of 10% of the population.

 

[WildCat]

Portraying middle class union workers as "greedy pigs" just shows how disconnected the American right wing is from reality.

They are greedy pigs. They are a special, untouchable, elite class. They get job guarantees and raises while everyone else gets reduced wages, furloughs, and layoffs.

Many state vendors have gone out of business waiting for Illinois to pay them, and their workers now have no jobs.

 

[lomiller]

I think that I follow, but even so, each deal is only with one school district. Seems that the other districts would eventually compete for the teaching resources, driving up demand? Not sure.

Why would they do that, what incentive is there for them to pay enough that people would be willing to uproot themselves sell their homes (at a loss most likely) and go to some other district as opposed to simply hiring someone just out of university

 

[stokes234]

They are greedy pigs. They are a special, untouchable, elite class. They get job guarantees and raises while everyone else gets reduced wages, furloughs, and layoffs.

Many state vendors have gone out of business waiting for Illinois to pay them, and their workers now have no jobs.

They are an elite class? Of the top 10% of earners in american society, how many would you expect to be public sector workers in unions?

 

[WildCat]

IThe rants are not based on reality. It's just people repeating the propaganda from Rush Limbaugh and other right wing pundits.

Sorry, I don't listen to Rush, watch Fox News, or get my info from Free Republic.

If you noticed the editorial I posted was from the Chicago Tribune, not Andrew Breitbart. And I notice you can't challenge a single fact brought forth, so all you're left with is baseless accusations.

 

[lomiller]

They are greedy pigs. They are a special, untouchable, elite class. They get job guarantees and raises while everyone else gets reduced wages, furloughs, and layoffs..

In the private sector people get reduced wages when the need for their services are reduced or disappear altogether. IOW it’s a response to lower demand for their services.

Do you have any evidence for a similar reduction in demand for teachers?

 

[WildCat]

They are an elite class? Of the top 10% of earners in american society, how many would you expect to be public sector workers in unions?

I'm not a Wall Street banker nor a government employee with a guaranteed job and raises because I was somebody's somebody. And frankly, I'm tired of paying the bill for both of these elite classes.

 

[WildCat]

In the private sector people get reduced wages when the need for their services are reduced or disappear altogether. IOW it’s a response to lower demand for their services.

Do you have any evidence for a similar reduction in demand for teachers?

None of the 50,000 state workers Gov. Quinn guaranteed jobs and wages to are teachers. They're people like the guys in the tollway booth, who can apparently take one day off per week on average with no consequence.

If you want to talk local, Chicago teachers make some of the highest teacher's salaries in the nation, yet produce some of the most poorly educated children in the country. They oppose any attempts at accountability or reform. Don't the school children have any rights in this? Or are they widgets after all, and schools are simply places where teachers go to work?

We overstaff our garbage trucks per union demands, then do nothing after an investigation reveals they work on average less than 6 hours per day. Because they're untouchable.

Now Illinois is completely broke, we have the worst credit rating of any state, we have underfunded pension liabilities of $80 billion at the state level alone, you can double that if you include county and municipal pensions. And we're selling bonds to pay pensions. To put that in perspective the entire budget for Illinois is $50 billion.

The state is broke and living beyond its means. And yes, a big chunk of the reason is the bloated contracts the pubic unions have.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Why would they do that, what incentive is there for them to pay enough that people would be willing to uproot themselves sell their homes (at a loss most likely) and go to some other district as opposed to simply hiring someone just out of university

The private sector also reduces the price of its products when the customers can't afford to pay as much...

 

[WildCat]

Possibly, depending on the structure of local government, but in the end the school districts are sub-divisions of the state government and there would be nothing stopping the state government from telling its school districts to "stop competing on wages -- you're driving the total cost up."

School districts in Illinois are funded locally, relatively little comes from the state.

And the whole point of a union is a shield against competition, they certainly don't encourage it.

 

[Kestrel]

Sorry, I don't listen to Rush, watch Fox News, or get my info from Free Republic.

If you noticed the editorial I posted was from the Chicago Tribune, not Andrew Breitbart. And I notice you can't challenge a single fact brought forth, so all you're left with is baseless accusations.

So how are those tax cuts working out?

That is what this is really about. We gave away the farm in tax cuts targeted at the very top of the economic ladder. And now we are putting the blame on middle class government workers.

The teachers union didn't crater the economy two years ago. The bloody investment bankers and hedge fund managers are responsible for that disaster.

 

[stokes234]

I'm not a Wall Street banker nor a government employee with a guaranteed job and raises because I was somebody's somebody. And frankly, I'm tired of paying the bill for both of these elite classes.

Well, at least you're consistant.

 

[WildCat]

So how are those tax cuts working out?

That is what this is really about. We gave away the farm in tax cuts targeted at the very top of the economic ladder. And now we are putting the blame on middle class government workers.

The teachers union didn't crater the economy two years ago. The bloody investment bankers and hedge fund managers are responsible for that disaster.

What the hell are you talking about? We've had nothing but tax increases here in Illinois.

 

[lomiller]

The private sector also reduces the price of its products when the customers can't afford to pay as much...

Can you point to significant deflation in that would indicate people can’t afford to pay as much?

 

[Newtons Bit]

Can you point to significant deflation in that would indicate people can’t afford to pay as much?

Please look at the decrease in revenue that governments have been seeing. The "price" they charge is a tax. Most areas have kept it relatively constant and yet revenue is declining.

Deflation has nothing to do with it.

 

[lomiller]

If you want to talk local, Chicago teachers make some of the highest teacher's salaries in the nation, yet produce some of the most poorly educated children in the country.

You should read up on correlation vs causation...

The poor conditions in Chicago schools that cause such poor results in its students also represent some of the worst working conditions for teachers in the US. If you want to attract anybody to work in some of the poorest conditions for that profession you need to pay the highest wages.

 

[carlitos]

You should read up on correlation vs causation...

The poor conditions in Chicago schools that cause such poor results in its students also represent some of the worst working conditions for teachers in the US. If you want to attract anybody to work in some of the poorest conditions for that profession you need to pay the highest wages.

The hypothesis given above by Leif Roar argues that municipal unions for teachers are needed because there is limited demand for teachers, thus insufficient competition to drive up prices. Moreover, he theorized that, if local districts were bidding for talent, the state could tell them to stop. Do you have any thoughts on that?

So how are those tax cuts working out?

What tax cuts? My income taxes at the state level will increase by 60% this year. My property taxes will increase by 20% this year. My local sales tax went down by a whole 0.25% and they are talking about removing exemptions for food to make up the difference.

Please go find one of the many, many "Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck are idiots" threads and vent your frustrations there. This one is about public sector unions.

 

[lomiller]

Please look at the decrease in revenue that governments have been seeing. The "price" they charge is a tax. Most areas have kept it relatively constant and yet revenue is declining.

Deflation has nothing to do with it.

Bzzzz

Government revenue goes up/down by much greater amounts then the underlying economy. If you are serious about addressing deficits you don’t look at the budget of any particular year you look at structural deficit/surplus something Republicans persistently refuse to do.

Deflation has nothing to do with it.

Deflation is a drop in the value of goods/services. You have claimed the value of teaching services has dropped; therefore you are claiming deflation in that sector.

 

[lomiller]

The hypothesis given above by Leif Roar argues that municipal unions for teachers are needed because there is limited demand for teachers, thus insufficient competition to drive up prices. Moreover, he theorized that, if local districts were bidding for talent, the state could tell them to stop. Do you have any thoughts on that?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Recent graduate are generally able to move around quite easily, but this becomes much more difficult after you buy a house and start a family freedom move is significantly reduced.