Psychics - Aussie skeptic says it like it is

[zooterkin]

Expecting that by consulting a "psychic" online or down at the corner shops is going to be any more that an interesting distraction could be considered mildly stupid, zooterkin.

You won't find me disagreeing with that statement.

But going on Television and badgering people to give opinions on a subject that you know absolutely zero about is bulk stupid.

From the clip I saw, he seemed to know a fair bit about the tricks charlatans use.

Do you realise that what could be termed the "occult", is the oldest science known to man. It is the mother of all knowledge, surviving for over 100,000 years in a dozen different cultures.

It is the reason a puny little naked ape was able to survive in a big tough world.
It was the shaman, the original occultist, who studied the stars, the seasons, the herbs, the animals, the landscape, so that his people would know where to hunt and live.

It was the medieval "witch" who was the original pharmacist, treating disease and injury with herbs and poultices while the orthodox "doctors" were simply blood letting.

It was the alchemist seeking the philosophers stone that gave rise to modern chemistry.

It is from the churches and mosques of the world that writing and mathematics arrive.

And all these people have one thing in common, they were seeking the "occult" or "unseen".

So if you have a lifetime or two there is buckets to be learned about the occult. You cant just log onto Mr Shermer's web page, memorise a couple of lines, and bang your stupid gums together without looking like a complete halfwit.

You haven't demonstrated that there is anything to know about the occult itself, only that in searching for mythical things such as the philosopher's stone, mankind eventually happened on the scientific method.

Can you give an example of something 'occult' that isn't better understood by science?

 

[zooterkin]

Of course, the fact that he didn't play football still doesn't seem to have quite got through.

I was assuming it was a local usage for someone who plays rugby football, but I may be over-generous.

 

[buzz lightyear]

You haven't demonstrated that there is anything to know about the occult itself, only that in searching for mythical things such as the philosopher's stone, mankind eventually happened on the scientific method.

Can you give an example of something 'occult' that isn't better understood by science?

Sorry AndyD if I slip a little more off topic, but this needs answering.

zooterkin, the examples that I gave, pointed out that the occult led to science.
This was to show you that they are one and the same, they are the passages that lead to knowledge.

They both require the same techniques of experimentation and study.

Hopefully one day science and religion will once again reunite and the modern scientific methods will be used to explore the occult.

Perhaps then the "leaches of religion" and the hard rule of science will dissipate for good.


Oh, yeah, while I think of it.

The slab of concrete out side the Fire Station on Friday afternoon was a bit like high noon at the OK corral.
It was a convenient spot on the main road from school to town where disputes were settled. Friday was a good day as it gave time for injuries to heal and tempers to quell over the weekend.

 

[arthwollipot]

I was assuming it was a local usage for someone who plays rugby football, but I may be over-generous.

He was a rugby union player. That's a kind of football. There's also rugby league, which is similar to rugby union, but slightly more civilised. We also play Aussie rules, which is what most people south of the border refer to as "footie", and we play soccer. American football we refer to as American football, or gridiron. Saying that someone played "football" is not sufficient information for an Australian to determine exactly what game someone played.

 

[arthwollipot]

Well duckies, do it, don't just dribble, your mum is going to have to clean that shirt.

Talk to the hand.

 

[buzz lightyear]

Talk to the hand.

It is remarkable, arthwollipot, how much skeptics resemble catholics, these days.

If you say something that challenges a catholic's faith, he screams "heretic", makes the sign of the cross and runs away.

If you do the same to a skeptic he screams "troll", makes the one finger salute (which I assume is "Talk to the hand") and runs away.

Probably something , as Rupert Sheldrake would suggest, to do with "morphic fields".

 

[arthwollipot]

It is remarkable, arthwollipot, how much skeptics resemble catholics, these days.

If you say something that challenges a catholic's faith, he screams "heretic", makes the sign of the cross and runs away.

If you do the same to a skeptic he screams "troll", makes the one finger salute (which I assume is "Talk to the hand") and runs away.

Probably.

Probably something , as Rupert Sheldrake would suggest, to do with "morphic fields".

You're trying real hard, and I'm not reacting, Buzz. There's no way you're going to rile me up.

 

[politas]

zooterkin, the examples that I gave, pointed out that the occult led to science.
This was to show you that they are one and the same, they are the passages that lead to knowledge.

They both require the same techniques of experimentation and study.

Mmm, yes. Exactly the same. That's why study of the occult went nowhere and produced no effective techniques for improving human life in thousands of years, while science has consisted of a body of testable and effective knowledge that grows faster every year and gives demonstrable value to human society.

Yep. No difference there.

 

[Mashuna]

zooterkin, the examples that I gave, pointed out that the occult led to science.
This was to show you that they are one and the same, they are the passages that lead to knowledge.

Except that the occult led mostly to ignorance and failure, so was abandoned, superseded by the scientific methodology.

They both require the same techniques of experimentation and study.

No, the experimentation and study of science rendered the paraphernalia and mysticism of the occult worthless.

Hopefully one day science and religion will once again reunite and the modern scientific methods will be used to explore the occult.

The occult has already been explored. Anything useful has been kept, all the rest has been cut away and discarded.

 

[Moochie]

Did you not watch to the end? he explicitly mentioned Michael Shermer, and the www.skeptic.com website.

Yes, I did. I thought it might have been helpful if he'd talked a little about cold reading before mentioning the Shermer site. But it's occurred to me that Fitzy might not be familiar with cold reading techniques, so couldn't talk about it.


M.

 

[Damien Evans]

Fitzy retired in 1989. Rugby did not become professional until 1995.

We all know they were getting paid long before then though.

 

[arthwollipot]

Mmm, yes. Exactly the same. That's why study of the occult went nowhere and produced no effective techniques for improving human life in thousands of years, while science has consisted of a body of testable and effective knowledge that grows faster every year and gives demonstrable value to human society.

Yep. No difference there.

That's a really good point. We had mysticism and the occult for thousands of years with only modest advances in technology - mostly construction and military technology at that. Then came the Rennaissance and the beginnings of the scientific method and in four hundred years we have global communications networks and twice the average lifespan.

The thing about science is that it works.

 

[Moochie]

That's a really good point. We had mysticism and the occult for thousands of years with only modest advances in technology - mostly construction and military technology at that. Then came the Rennaissance and the beginnings of the scientific method and in four hundred years we have global communications networks and twice the average lifespan.

The thing about science is that it works.

Well put, the both of you. We'd do well to memorize these important facts and use them when responding to woo everywhere. They (the true believers in all things fantastical) really have no comeback.


M.

 

[buzz lightyear]

Well put, the both of you. We'd do well to memorize these important facts and use them when responding to woo everywhere. They (the true believers in all things fantastical) really have no comeback.

M.

Memorising lines of rhetoric and repeating them parrot fashion seems to be very common practise here.
Sorry guys this does you no justice in a discussion. It just shows that you have no thought of your own, just like the Mormon at your door on Sunday morning.

And Mashuna, to say that the occult has been totally explored is like saying that we know every thing about existence.

It has been explored with a wide variety of techneques by many people, but little has been done using the scientific process.
The results that I have achieved, (agree with them or not) would not have been possible 100 years ago.
The technology (GPS, digital cameras, computers, aircraft, automobiles and modern pharmaceuticals) that I used were not available then. So who knows what will be available in the future.

It is vital that we explore this realm, as it holds the answers to the most important questions that man could ask:

Who we are.
Where we came from.
And where do we go (if we do) after this life.

 

[Mashuna]

And Mashuna, to say that the occult has been totally explored is like saying that we know every thing about existence.

No it isn't, it's saying that we've explored many occult claims, found them to be gibberish and so discarded them. No need to keep exhuming them.

It has been explored with a wide variety of techneques by many people, but little has been done using the scientific process.
The results that I have achieved, (agree with them or not) would not have been possible 100 years ago.
The technology (GPS, digital cameras, computers, aircraft, automobiles and modern pharmaceuticals) that I used were not available then. So who knows what will be available in the future.

It is vital that we explore this realm, as it holds the answers to the most important questions that man could ask:

Who we are.
Where we came from.
And where do we go (if we do) after this life.

It's just so wrong, I can't be bothered to address it.

 

[buzz lightyear]

It's just so wrong, I can't be bothered to address it.

You know...



Nah. Totally not worth it.

You are right. Not worth even reading, let alone responding. Total crap.

Remarkabe number of people who have responded who didn't think that was worth it, but they did.
One even responded, who hadnt read the post.

And interestingly they all subscribe to the scientific method which is experimentation and observation.

Hmmm

You guys should really practise what you preach. It is a good way to get at the truth.

For instance:

Your good mate Jim Callahan has a thing happening called "The Seance Project" where he is doing some sort of Halloween experiment.
He has invited anyone to participate, so how about you guys signing up, I have.

I believe he is just a performer, nothing more. But if I really want to know, then the scientific approach is, to be involved. Find out for your self.
Stop the backslapping and delve a little deeper.

If he is a charlatan, as I believe he is, you will have first hand evidence, not the pointless "Nah, Totally not worth it" statements that you are using at the moment.

Lift your game, guys!

 

[politas]

Memorising lines of rhetoric and repeating them parrot fashion seems to be very common practise here.
Sorry guys this does you no justice in a discussion. It just shows that you have no thought of your own, just like the Mormon at your door on Sunday morning.

Of course, what Moochie suggested was remembering the facts, not memorising lines of rhetoric, so your comment is completely mis-aimed and close to slanderous.

 

[buzz lightyear]

Of course, what Moochie suggested was remembering the facts, not memorising lines of rhetoric, so your comment is completely mis-aimed and close to slanderous.

Then while you are spouting your anti occult propaganda, politas, it probably good to add that a couple of facts.

These being, that in that in those four hundred years of "Renaissance" we in the West have so lost the meaning of existence that we have to medicate, on a massive scale, against the depression that has followed.

We also spend more on weapons than any other projects, except probably space exploration. And we do that because we believe the place is inevitably buggered and on the long term it is best to get the ***** out.

We cant even drink the water

It is time for a new Renaissance, politas.

 

[AndyD]

That's a really good point. We had mysticism and the occult for thousands of years with only modest advances in technology - mostly construction and military technology at that. Then came the Rennaissance and the beginnings of the scientific method and in four hundred years we have global communications networks and twice the average lifespan.

Skeptico's "Pretty Soon" sums it up nicely.

Your good mate Jim Callahan has a thing happening called "The Seance Project" where he is doing some sort of Halloween experiment. He has invited anyone to participate, so how about you guys signing up, I have.

So, what you're saying is that we must never take a disbelieving stance on any individual claim but must always test every claim, personally and at our own expense, in order to determine its veracity. So if anyone says unicorns exist and for a hundred bucks a head they'll prove it to a large audience, we should hand over the cash - every time. Excuse me while I stop laughing.

I really don't think science needs to waste much time testing unfalsifiable claims but it's worth noting that, to date, psychics seem to have been universally unable to satisfy science as to their legitimacy.

Now...

Psychics release Claremont killer "identikit: thread and story link here

That's why we need more "bullies" like Fitzsimons and less of the "why can't we all just get along" brigade in the media.

Sorry to drag it back on topic so abruptly.

 

[buzz lightyear]

Skeptico's "Pretty Soon" sums it up nicely.


we need more "bullies" like Fitzsimons and less of the "why can't we all just get along" brigade in the media.

Sorry to drag it back on topic so abruptly.

Thanks for the link to the SPR site AndyD.
http://www.spr.ac.uk/expcms/index.php?section=4

I found the quote;
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding every thing I cannot explain as fraud"
by C. G. Jung.
something all should contemplate.

And I am glad you agree that Fitzsimons is a bully. From what I see he is committing the fashionable stupidity that Jung refers to.