Psychic parrot? What are the BBC thinking?

ohp said:
I don't think there was any reason behind it. One day someone was googling for something, a person who has an interest in parrots who has access to a parrot mailing list, they came across the story (didn't pay much attention to the date) and mailed the link to the list. one of those people puts it on Digg..
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That's boring. My theory is much more exciting, let's go with that. *strokes beard again and puts pipe in mouth*

ETA: I'm not sure that accounts for the BBC ranking because that is calculated by people going to the article and clicking the "email to a friend" link, I believe.
 
tkingdoll said:
That's boring. My theory is much more exciting, let's go with that. *strokes beard again and puts pipe in mouth*

ETA: I'm not sure that accounts for the BBC ranking because that is calculated by people going to the article and clicking the "email to a friend" link, I believe.
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Ahh. Well, I would imagine that an article with high traffic, and with the particular appeal of this story (I mean, I clicked on the digg link, and I was all ready to post it here when I found the thread) would also have a high incidence of people wanting to tell their friends about it - the ranking is still highly coupled to the traffic.

Or... perhaps the parrot also has limited psychotemporal abilities... *strokes beard, and realises a shave is in order*
 
Dave1001 said:
Human users of sign language use it for abstract, symbolic, and grammatical communication. Using nouns and verbs, subjects and objects, in novel combinations to communicate ideas and desires. That is what I think people are skeptical of regarding nonhuman primate sign language, and even parrot communication. I don't think anyone doubts that a primate can learn to wave his/her hand a certain way to indicate s/he wants a banana.
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My son's first sentence was, "go home get it" when his blanket wasn't in the car with us. Before that he knew lots of words and how to communicate a number of things.

Why would a primate closely related to human beings not be able to form such a sentence?

Why would humans have developed language in its entirety as a single genetic step? Doesn't it make more sense that the brain of a higher primate can think abstractly? And if so, when given the tools for interspecies communication be able to use those tools?

We know a chimpanzee can follow human speech commands. Chimps and other primates can make and use tools, teach their young how to wash sandy potatoes, move a box to climb on to reach a banana and so on.

Frankly, I'm skeptical of claims animals with higher intelligence don't have thought processes similar to humans. That seems to me to be the, "God made us different", woo rather than the, "animals can sense disaster", woo line of thinking, if you know what I mean.

I think it's simply foolish to think when you teach your dog simple commands you are not communicating a sentence, only some triggered behavior. I literally have to spell the word walk and not say exactly what I plan to do if I'm talking to someone about taking my dogs out. If I say anything like, "I'm going to take the dogs on a walk" they know exactly what I mean and go nuts until I take them out. They know what, "Go get your toy" means. It doesn't mean to look for where I'm throwing something. It doesn't mean we're going on a walk. It means get your toy and bring it to me and I'll throw it.

I use simple commands but they involve verbs and nouns. "Out of the street", "get your toy", "there's a squirrel", "there's a bunny" they know what all those mean and they know squirrels are usually on the fence and bunnies are on the ground. These are dogs. Why wouldn't a primate be able to put a noun and a verb together?
 
skeptigirl,

Can the apes communicate correctly through sign language with humans they have just met?
 
They've now edited the story and removed the reference to telepathy (although it still says "Last Updated: Monday, 26 January 2004, 15:27 GMT). There's another recent thread about this here.

They don't seem to take any notice when I contact them about stories. How exactly did you contact them?
 
This should be verifiable. If verified, it would be one of the greatest scientific discoveries of all time.

In an experiment, the bird and his owner were put in separate rooms and filmed as the artist opened random envelopes containing picture cards.

Analysis showed the parrot had used appropriate keywords three times more often than would be likely by chance.

Captives' frustrations

This was despite the researchers discounting responses like "What ya doing on the phone?" when N'kisi saw a card of a man with a telephone, and "Can I give you a hug?" with one of a couple embracing.
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CFLarsen said:
skeptigirl,

Can the apes communicate correctly through sign language with humans they have just met?
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Most of the ape language studies I am familiar with do not allow the ape to see the person they are communicating with at all. They either hear requests through headphones or intercom and are videotaped responding to them or use
visual symbols via an interface.

It would be a bit pointless allowing them to 'communicate' face to face as it could obviously be a 'clever Hans' effect.
 
The Koko web site and work is not as useful for a scientific review of the evidence but the Central WA University site is. Here are a couple excerpts:

Research
If a chimpanzee stays out at night, a caregiver must spend the night at CHCI. On one such occasion, Dar repeatedly asked the caregiver for BLANKETS on a night that they received paper and pillows, to which the caregiver replied SORRY. CAN’T. Dar responded with GOOD DAR/GOOD BOY. The apprentices and caregiving staff worried that by denying Dar blankets they were giving him the impression that he had done something wrong. As a result, the apprentices increased the amount of clothing given to the chimpanzees for nesting. Nevertheless the chimpanzees persisted in their requests for blankets and covers. This time it was Washoe. At this point, the apprentices realized that the study was impacting the chimpanzees’ well-being. Therefore the study was not in the chimpanzees’ best interest and was concluded.
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Chimpanzees at CHCI
The Chimpanzee & Human Communication Institute (CHCI) at Central Washington University in Ellensburg, Washington is home to chimpanzees who use the signs of American Sign Language (ASL) to communicate with humans and each other. Four of the chimpanzees, Washoe, Moja, Tatu, and Dar were cross-fostered by humans and immersed in an ASL environment much like a child is immersed in a spoken language environment (Gardner & Gardner, 1989). The youngest chimpanzee, Loulis, was adopted and raised by Washoe. Loulis acquired his signs from Washoe and other signing chimpanzees (Fouts, Fouts, & Van Cantfort, 1989)....

... Bodamer, M.D. & Gardner, R.A. (2002). How cross-fostered chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) initiate and maintain conversations. Journal of Comparative Psychology, 116, 12-26.

Fouts, R.S., Fouts, D.H., & Van Cantfort, T.E. (1989). The infant Loulis learns signs from cross-fostered chimpanzees. In R.A. Gardner, B.T. Gardner, & T.E. Van Cantfort (Eds.), Teaching Sign Language to Chimpanzees (pp. 280-292).

Jensvold, M. L. A., & Gardner, R. A. (2000). Interactive use of sign language by cross-fostered chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes). Journal of Comparative Psychology, 114, 335-346.
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There is a body of legitimate research out there. Older chimps teaching the younger chimps to sign is certainly strong evidence.

Chimpanzee Communication: Insight Into the Origin of Language, has a good summary with links to further information.

I'd be interested to see what was discussed in the past thread on this issue. I wonder if the unscientific nature of the work with Koko led people to overlook the very scientific work with Washoe and related chimps at Central WA University.
 
Elaedith said:
Most of the ape language studies I am familiar with do not allow the ape to see the person they are communicating with at all. They either hear requests through headphones or intercom and are videotaped responding to them or use
visual symbols via an interface.

It would be a bit pointless allowing them to 'communicate' face to face as it could obviously be a 'clever Hans' effect.
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Is there a double blind element? Do the people interpreting the ape's actions not know what the requests were by the people making the requests? Also, links to any such studies please?
 
skeptigirl said:
The Koko web site and work is not as useful for a scientific review of the evidence but the Central WA University site is. Here are a couple excerpts:

Research

Chimpanzees at CHCIThere is a body of legitimate research out there. Older chimps teaching the younger chimps to sign is certainly strong evidence.

Chimpanzee Communication: Insight Into the Origin of Language, has a good summary with links to further information.

I'd be interested to see what was discussed in the past thread on this issue. I wonder if the unscientific nature of the work with Koko led people to overlook the very scientific work with Washoe and related chimps at Central WA University.
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I'm curious what the strongest (legitimate) skeptics of the work with Washoe and other chimps at Central WA University have to say.

From these descriptions, I don't have a clear picture of how clever hans effect was able to be controlled for/eliminated.

I'd think that some type of double blind study would need to be done, for example, researchers not knowing which chimps had been taught sign and which hadn't being able to independently assess it, researchers who hadn't been taught sign independently assessing it, researchers independently assessing which young chimps had been taught sign and which hadn't and seeing how strongly the assessments correlate, that type thing.
 
Dave1001 said:
Is there a double blind element? Do the people interpreting the ape's actions not know what the requests were by the people making the requests? Also, links to any such studies please?
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You can look at the links I provided. There are some very carefully done studies out there.

I see we are posting close to the same time here. I don't have time to hunt down a lot of links but I have seen enough of the Washoe work to know there is more than sufficient evidence the chimps use sign language and aren't responding to other cues. I really think you need to investigate it yourself. Your doubts echo those of years ago and this work has been done now long enough to have overcome all those criticisms. Seriously, your skepticism is unwarranted in this case.
 
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On December 29, 2006. I am looking at the article and the reference to telepathy has been edited out. The article now reads: "N'kisi's remarkable abilities feature in the latest BBC Wildlife Magazine."

But the telepathy experiment is still in there. It looks like someone's angry email as had somewhat of an effect.


 
Also in the early 1970's, a chimpanzee named Washoe was taught to communicate in American Sign Language (ASL) by Beatrix and Allen Gardner at the University of Nevada in Reno. She was immersed in an environment where she learned to use ASL in daily interactions with her human companions. Washoe learned 132 different words in her time with the Gardners. In time since, four other chimps have also been taught to sign and they, along with Washoe, are the subject of study by Roger and Deborah Fouts. These five chimps, who consider themselves a family, now use many more signs than they were ever expected to learn (Washoe herself can use up to 240 reliable signs) ,and sign not only to the humans, but also to each other to communicate. Washoe even taught her own adopted son to sign without human intervention (Fouts).

Many linguists still believe that apes have no real grasp of human language, but are merely imitating their human companions. They insist that while apes may understand individual symbols or words, they do not understand the concepts of syntax, or how words are put together to form a complete idea. However, evidence is continually proving that the nonhuman primate mind is capable of advanced thought (Rayl 89).

Chimpanzees have shown the ability to communicate using ASL to human observers and other chimpanzees about the normal course of surrounding events. They use signs to create natural language categories; for example, they will sign "dog" when shown many different species of dogs and "shoe" whether it be a slipper or a cowboy boot. They can invent new signs and combine signs to metaphorically express something different, for example: calling a radish "cry hurt food" or referring to a watermelon as a "drink fruit" (Fouts). They can comprehend and produce novel prepositional phrases, understand vocal English, translate words into ASL and even transmit their signing skills to the next generation without human intervention.
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From Skeptigirl's 3rd link. Either this is true, or it's clever hans effect or something the researchers are falsely reading into the chimp's behavior. I wonder how they control for researchers? It doesn't seem impossible to me for them to set up double blind-type protections, but I don't see evidence yet that the researchers are doing anything like that.
 
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skeptigirl said:
You can look at the links I provided. There are some very carefully done studies out there.

I see we are posting close to the same time here. I don't have time to hunt down a lot of links but I have seen enough of the Washoe work to know there is more than sufficient evidence the chimps use sign language and aren't responding to other cues. I really think you need to investigate it yourself. Your doubts echo those of years ago and this work has been done now long enough to have overcome all those criticisms. Seriously, your skepticism is unwarranted in this case.
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I'm looking at the links you provided and I haven't found anything yet. "Carefully done studies" isn't the same as controlling for clever hans, double blind, anything like that. It is starting to look suspicious to me that they're not highlighting front and center how they control for clever hans, given that that's the chief criticism of this work.
 
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