PS Audio Noise Harvester

[slyjoe]

I have a question about ethics: Should we keep playing with this sick puppy?

Hans

Uhhh, not sure how this is about ethics. But I vote no.

 

[MortFurd]

I have a question about ethics: Should we keep playing with this sick puppy?

Hans

I quit long ago.

Either he's effin nuts, in which case it is not nice to make fun of him, or else he's the world's most determined troll - in which case DNFTT.

Either way, I'm done talking to him about anything.

 

[ExtremeSkeptic]

I quit long ago.

Either he's effin nuts, in which case it is not nice to make fun of him, or else he's the world's most determined troll - in which case DNFTT.

Either way, I'm done talking to him about anything.

It's not hard to see who are the real trolls here, I actually own all of the tweaks I talk about.

 

[marting]

"Thou art God" - Valentine Michael Smith

2,4,6,8 Time to disincorporate.

-apologies to Lehrer and Heinlein.

 

[cloudshipsrule]

If you want as little jitter as possible, then Tara Labs Zero is the cable that has the least coloration. It's because of the rectangular copper conductor in near vacuum dielectric.
Nordost Valhalla is a round copper conductor with silver plating, it's the most colored cable there is, it gives more detail than neutral. Since it has air dielectric is also sounds smooth.

Funny thing is you could NOT tell a difference between the two in a double-blind test.

"Could so."

Could NOT.

"Could so. Did one myself and proved it to myself."

Yeah, right.

Sadly, we'll never get to enjoy a youtube video of you failing a double-blind test using the aforEmentioned cables, but imagining the test comes in a close second to the real thing.

AlsO; how does adding a beefier/shielded power cable from the dedicated wall outlet to the equipment magically improve the characteristics of the 20 to 100feet of CRAP/UNSHIELDED romex between the breaker box to said outlet? Or are you saying drywall is an excellent EMI/RFI shield?

 

[osmosis]

Y'know, listening to ES's demented ramblings and seeing those Brilliant Pebbles has given me an idea.

I'm going to buy up a thousand gallons of ordinary latex wall paint, slap a label on it that claims to reduce EMI, and put it on the market for ten times the original cost.

ES, if you're seeing this, I'll give you a 10% discount.

 

[ExtremeSkeptic]

AlsO; how does adding a beefier/shielded power cable from the dedicated wall outlet to the equipment magically improve the characteristics of the 20 to 100feet of CRAP/UNSHIELDED romex between the breaker box to said outlet? Or are you saying drywall is an excellent EMI/RFI shield?

If the power cord between outlet and equipment is thicker than the apartment wiring it makes the sound worse. If it isn't the same gauge then the shorter the better. But that is only true if you don't want to add any coloration.

The silver plating of Valhalla adds coloration and you only need 50cm of it to get enough. You can add the Valhalla after crappy stock extension strips and you still hear the Valhalla sound signature. It's because it colors the sound.

Shielding is needed near the equipment because the EMI matters the most there. I'm using 3-4 layers of ERS Paper near the connectors and 1-2 layers at the middle of the cable.

 

[Paulhoff]

You are so silly, ha ha ha.

Paul

 

[AudioFreak]

 

[MRC_Hans]

Honestly, ES, You are a joke when you claim your ears are the true gold standard, and the rest of the world has tin ears.

You are a bigger joke when you claim to be an alien on a special mission to improve Earth's sound equipment technology.

But when you attempt to provide technical explanations, you are absolutely hilarious.

If the power cord between outlet and equipment is thicker than the apartment wiring it makes the sound worse. If it isn't the same gauge then the shorter the better. But that is only true if you don't want to add any coloration.

I suppose you have heard something about reflections, but that is not for audio, much less for mains power.

The silver plating of Valhalla adds coloration and you only need 50cm of it to get enough. You can add the Valhalla after crappy stock extension strips and you still hear the Valhalla sound signature. It's because it colors the sound.

What does coloration mean? (Hint: I happen to know the answer, but do you?)

Shielding is needed near the equipment because the EMI matters the most there. I'm using 3-4 layers of ERS Paper near the connectors and 1-2 layers at the middle of the cable.

Kitten material. Where did you get the idea that EMI matters most near the equipment? ERS paper has no effect on EMI, but even if it had, just wrapping it around the wires would not stop EMI.

Hans

 

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Honestly, ES, You are a joke when you claim your ears are the true gold standard, and the rest of the world has tin ears.

Like I said before, my ears are worse than most audiophiles, that's why I entered this hobby, to improve my weakest human senses.

You are a bigger joke when you claim to be an alien on a special mission to improve Earth's sound equipment technology.

But when you attempt to provide technical explanations, you are absolutely hilarious.

Truth is funny for the narrow-minded skeptic.

I suppose you have heard something about reflections, but that is not for audio, much less for mains power.

I haven't heard reflections, they must make very small differences. I have tried different length Valhalla cables and it still sounded good. The shortest cable had stronger bass.

What does coloration mean? (Hint: I happen to know the answer, but do you?)

Coloration is everything that isn't neutral. Valhalla makes it better than neutral because there is more low-level detail.

Kitten material. Where did you get the idea that EMI matters most near the equipment? ERS paper has no effect on EMI, but even if it had, just wrapping it around the wires would not stop EMI.

Hans

Because my first amp picked up radio channels through the female RCA connectors. I changed into different interconnects with different plugs and they all reduced the noise a different amount.

 

[Paulhoff]

RF chokes, RF chokes, RF chokes, etc etc etc.........

Paul

 

[Myriad]

No, I'm always serious. People just like to laugh at a truth they don't want to be true, because it's their way of dealing with their jealousy. My 128kbps mp3 sound better than the skeptic's wav will ever sound, because they don't believe that a tweak makes a bigger difference. In the future you will see I was right about everything I said in this thread. After you have built the proper intelligence, go back and see for yourself.

From my point of view this "jealousy" theory of yours, as a motive for doubting your claims makes no sense. Here's why.

The only audio systems I have are crap. The most I've ever spent on audio playback equipment is $200 on a set of computer speakers (left and right cubes, and a subwoofer, by Cambridge Soundworks).

I'm completely aware that they're crap. I've heard better audio in a rental car. I can certainly hear the difference.

But, I don't care that much. If I did care, I'd buy better equipment. I could go out today and buy a much better system than what I have, and still be able to pay my bills on time. If I gave up my dogs and skipped a vacation, I'd save enough money to buy an excellent consumer system in about a year. If I tapped into my savings, I could buy an absolute top of the line consumer system right away. If I sold my house and moved into a crappy apartment, I'd have enough money to buy real professional equipment. And at each step, I'd be able to hear the difference.

But just because I can hear the difference, doesn't mean I care about the difference.

It's just like knowing that driving would be more fun if I had a Ferrari instead of the car I have now (which is likewise, by "autophile" standards, crap). But how much more fun? I'd still have to stop at traffic lights. I'd still be delayed by traffic jams. When I'd drive to the supermarket in a Ferrari, the fruit wouldn't be any fresher and the checkout lines would be just as long.

So, the idea that I reject your jars of rocks and unnecessary line filters and gold fuses and toilet paper wrappings as ineffectual money-wasting woo has nothing to do with being unable to hear differences in audio quality (I can), nor with being jealous because I spent money on more expensive methods (I didn't). It has to do with knowing something about how signals propagate in wires, how power grids and power supplies work, and where noise does and doesn't come from.

Tell you what: I'll describe a typical problem I once had to solve regarding electronic signals and noise (this one back in the 80s). If you can tell me how I solved it (or, how I could have solved it in a different way), then I'll pay attention when you tell me how to solve the problems of noise in audio systems.

The problem was monitoring the core body temperature of a person during circadian rhythm experiments. The temperature had to be measured and recorded continuously and accurately, for up to months at a stretch. The subjects were confined to a small suite of rooms, but otherwise ambulatory. The only suitable method of transduction of the temperature signal available was a thermisor, a resistor whose resistance varies with temperature (as all resistors do; thermistors do it on purpose, in a calibrated manner). Because of the range and precision of the measurement required, 80 to 110 degrees F with a precision of 0.01 degree F, this required accurate measurement of resistance to within a fraction (about 1/4th) of an ohm. The current through a thermistor has to be small, let's say about 1 milliamp (corresponding to, very approximately, a 1-volt voltage drop across the thermistor) to avoid self-heating effects. Furthermore, for safety, the system had to be electrically isolated from the patient -- that is, there could be no electrical circuit path, not even through semiconductors, between anything powered by mains current, and the thermistor. This was in the 80s, so radio transmission of the signal was not yet feasible as a solution (analog radio was not precise enough, and digital radio networking didn't exist yet), and other constraints including the need for realtime display of the data in our control room precluded using a self-contained battery-powered portable device. Cables and connections were therefore necessary, and of course any noise would ruin the measurement completely. I should also add that the room itself could not be Faraday-cage shielded from all EMF, because normal mains power had to be operational inside the room (and the equipment inside the rooms included banks of up to 30 80-Watt fluorescent light fixtures).

Any ideas from the Advanced Physics canon?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Paulhoff]

I don't know what information is missing, but something is missing from your description.

Paul

 

[EternalSceptic]

From my point of view this "jealousy" theory of yours, as a motive for doubting your claims makes no sense. Here's why.

The only audio systems I have are crap. The most I've ever spent on audio playback equipment is $200 on a set of computer speakers (left and right cubes, and a subwoofer, by Cambridge Soundworks).

I'm completely aware that they're crap. I've heard better audio in a rental car. I can certainly hear the difference.

But, I don't care that much. If I did care, I'd buy better equipment. I could go out today and buy a much better system than what I have, and still be able to pay my bills on time. If I gave up my dogs and skipped a vacation, I'd save enough money to buy an excellent consumer system in about a year. If I tapped into my savings, I could buy an absolute top of the line consumer system right away. If I sold my house and moved into a crappy apartment, I'd have enough money to buy real professional equipment. And at each step, I'd be able to hear the difference.

But just because I can hear the difference, doesn't mean I care about the difference.

It's just like knowing that driving would be more fun if I had a Ferrari instead of the car I have now (which is likewise, by "autophile" standards, crap). But how much more fun? I'd still have to stop at traffic lights. I'd still be delayed by traffic jams. When I'd drive to the supermarket in a Ferrari, the fruit wouldn't be any fresher and the checkout lines would be just as long.

So, the idea that I reject your jars of rocks and unnecessary line filters and gold fuses and toilet paper wrappings as ineffectual money-wasting woo has nothing to do with being unable to hear differences in audio quality (I can), nor with being jealous because I spent money on more expensive methods (I didn't). It has to do with knowing something about how signals propagate in wires, how power grids and power supplies work, and where noise does and doesn't come from.

Tell you what: I'll describe a typical problem I once had to solve regarding electronic signals and noise (this one back in the 80s). If you can tell me how I solved it (or, how I could have solved it in a different way), then I'll pay attention when you tell me how to solve the problems of noise in audio systems.

The problem was monitoring the core body temperature of a person during circadian rhythm experiments. The temperature had to be measured and recorded continuously and accurately, for up to months at a stretch. The subjects were confined to a small suite of rooms, but otherwise ambulatory. The only suitable method of transduction of the temperature signal available was a thermisor, a resistor whose resistance varies with temperature (as all resistors do; thermistors do it on purpose, in a calibrated manner). Because of the range and precision of the measurement required, 80 to 110 degrees F with a precision of 0.01 degree F, this required accurate measurement of resistance to within a fraction (about 1/4th) of an ohm. The current through a thermistor has to be small, let's say about 1 milliamp (corresponding to, very approximately, a 1-volt voltage drop across the thermistor) to avoid self-heating effects. Furthermore, for safety, the system had to be electrically isolated from the patient -- that is, there could be no electrical circuit path, not even through semiconductors, between anything powered by mains current, and the thermistor. This was in the 80s, so radio transmission of the signal was not yet feasible as a solution (analog radio was not precise enough, and digital radio networking didn't exist yet), and other constraints including the need for realtime display of the data in our control room precluded using a self-contained battery-powered portable device. Cables and connections were therefore necessary, and of course any noise would ruin the measurement completely. I should also add that the room itself could not be Faraday-cage shielded from all EMF, because normal mains power had to be operational inside the room (and the equipment inside the rooms included banks of up to 30 80-Watt fluorescent light fixtures).

Any ideas from the Advanced Physics canon?

Respectfully,
Myriad

Converting the amplitude into sound colors and letting ES listen?

Seriously:

Sampling the signal from the thermistor, digitizing the amplitudes, sending it over a high-voltage-insulated transformer. Given the slow rate of temp variation the speed should not have been a problem.

Just one solution. Isolating the patient from electrical and rf - noise is a different subject. As soon as the signal is digitized, electrical noise is not a problem anymore. Btw, I don't remember - was fibre optics an option at this time?

There are of course always several ways to skin a cat

 

[Myriad]

I don't know what information is missing, but something is missing from your description.

I described only the major constraints, not the solution. There is no clever trick involved, just ordinary application of basic electronics ("basic physics"?).

Unless what you mean is that I haven't described where we put the thermistor to sense core body temperature. (That's irrelevant to the problem, though it might not be irrelevant to the person being studied!) Use your imagination. Or ask an astronaut.

ES, I'll answer your questions but I want the other ES to have a chance to try first, even though I doubt he will.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[osmosis]

I should also add that the room itself could not be Faraday-cage shielded from all EMF, because normal mains power had to be operational inside the room (and the equipment inside the rooms included banks of up to 30 80-Watt fluorescent light fixtures).

Any ideas from the Advanced Physics canon?

I'm just using crappy old regular physics, but I'll offer my guess. Differential signaling?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Like I said before, my ears are worse than most audiophiles, that's why I entered this hobby, to improve my weakest human senses.


Truth is funny for the narrow-minded skeptic.

I haven't heard reflections, they must make very small differences. I have tried different length Valhalla cables and it still sounded good. The shortest cable had stronger bass.

Coloration is everything that isn't neutral. Valhalla makes it better than neutral because there is more low-level detail.

My friend, the funny thing is the jump you make from your subjective hearing experiences to imagined technology. You refuse to realize that hearing is an extremely uncertain instrument, and your technical knowledge is ... shall we say, quite superficial. Combine that with your arrogant "I know better than everybody else" attitude, and the result is comedy.

Because my first amp picked up radio channels through the female RCA connectors. I changed into different interconnects with different plugs and they all reduced the noise a different amount.

Yes, well, some crappy amplifiers do that. I understand you have some radio transmitters nearby, so in your location you may have special problems with noise. The fact remains that you can't just haphazardly apply screening material and expect a useful result. And you can't listen your way through noise suppression. The best you can do in that direction is to follow my advice of listening to a dead channel, instead of making fun of it. Of course you cannot know how the music sounds that way, but you will be able to mimimize the audible noise.

RFI problems require measuring instruments. Or do a simple overkill operation, which is essentially what you are trying. However, screening your way out of powerful RFI problems is next to impossible, short of building a faraday cage. Instead, you should use suppressors. A handful of ferrite cores on your cables will do more than a ton of ERS paper, but even here, you need to use a systematic approach.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

*sniip*I should also add that the room itself could not be Faraday-cage shielded from all EMF, because normal mains power had to be operational inside the room (and the equipment inside the rooms included banks of up to 30 80-Watt fluorescent light fixtures).

Any ideas from the Advanced Physics canon?

Respectfully,
Myriad

Been doing such equipment in the late seventies. No, fibre optics were not a viable solution back then.

Double FM telemetry was.

I know you are asking for ES's opinion, but let's face it: He won't understand half of the important words in your description. Much less be able to offer a solution.

BTW, it is quite possible, but no doubt prohibitively expensive, to build a faraday cage for such a purpose. "All" you need is extensive RF filtering on power wiring, phone wiring, etc, and have your light armatures shine in through gridded windows.

An anecdote: We were on an introductory tour of an Airforce electronic service facility (this must have been in 1966), and we were shown their screened room. The officer showing us around pulled the heavy copper-clad door shut and proudly annouced: "Now no radio signals can enter or exit this room". And six pairs of eyes turned towards a transistor radio on a desk which kept merrily playing a local program. "Ehhrm, nearly no signals..." added the officer. .... They later added filtering on the mains wires .

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Forgot this one, sorry:

Coloration is everything that isn't neutral.

Well, that is superficially right. The full answer is that coloration is the balance between overtones. In other words: Frequency (and to a degree, phase-) response. I could explain to you which things can influence the frequency reponse of a system, but I suspect you won't really be interested.

However, frequency response, and thus coloration, is fully measurable. No magic at all.

Hans