proto-consciousness field theory

Er, no, I don't know why you would assume that. I'm referring to my exchange with Squeegee Beckenheim where I said neither of us can do the maths and you jumped in and said, "I can!"
I was just expressing my willingness to participate in such a conversation, to encourage you not to avoid math just because you assume none of us can keep up with you.

I presumed you said that for a reason and you were about to reveal something relevant. Apparently I was wrong, as all you did was make a correction to my English that turned out to be erroneous.
I never suggested your English was incorrect. Something about your manner of posting had led me to suspect you were English. I thought it might be necessary to inform you that what you might be interpreting as a shortage of maths on my side of the pond could have more to do with a difference in how we abbreviate than anything else. (Something about that struck me as meta-appropriate for this thread, but I won't try to explain why.)

So it has all been, as you say, just a series of misunderstandings and incorrect assumptions by the two of us.
 
That's pretty interesting, do you have any references for it?


Nothing specific. What I wrote is my own synoptic view of a wide range of ancient thought about the elemental composition of reality, much of which I learned from secondary sources though it's pretty basic material. (And none of it from primary original sources as I don't read Greek, Latin, Hindi, etc.) The Greeks, for instance, disagreed vehemently with one another. Some championed various elemental monisms in which all substances are actually disguised forms of [your favorite here]. Others, that elements could transform into one another (which would imply they're all variant forms of some primal-stuff, but without actually saying so). Many, that all actual substances contained all the elements at least in trace amounts. I don't remember which it was that first associated elements with compass directions, but that association lives on in occult traditions. I believe there are also elemental associations in the astrology of the time. Aristotle included an entire sphere of fire as part of the sublunar cosmos.

All these ideas fit the general pattern of elements being ambient, as an explanation of how fire can appear in air, minerals condense from drying water, and so forth. Fire was not only one of the four tangible substances, it was also (to many of the Greeks) the principle of change and transformation. One might say, the causer of processes, though the idea that it itself was a process was never quite reached as far as I know. In spite of that, though, fire also stubbornly remained material. For instance many Greeks speculated that fire must be based on a triangular or tetrahedral form, the sharp points being the reason why it hurts to touch it! (Note that though that's completely wrong as an explanation of the sensation of heat from combustion, it's very close to completely correct as an explanation of the sensation of "heat" from spicy foods!)

Another common thread is that all these ancient Greek models of matter were very naturalistic. They all attempt in various ways to avoid explanations where things appear out of nowhere or phenomena rely on the actions of invisible spirits. You can contrast this with some medieval views, where fire gets conjured up from some distant realm of fire when kindled, and banished back to there when extinguished. There's a close parallel there with baron's insistence (completely justified, in my humble opinion) that his hypothesis is naturalistic and neither assumes nor implies a soul that persists after death.

Greek philosophy -- ambient or latent fire = baron's proto-conscousness field (no soul)
Medieval philosophy -- realm of fire = persistent conscious souls (and a remote realm of souls, e.g. heaven)

I think that we generally do tend to be confused by the nature of processes as opposed to things, and so to the extent that consciousness is a process it makes sense that it's been difficult for humans to understand.


We also tend to mischaracterize processes as things; or if there's actually no hard distinction between the two, we under-appreciate the process aspect of the nature of things. I've written before about how we think of a tree as an object made of (mostly) cellulose. Even when we try to look at it as a process, we focus mostly on the complex biochemistry that creates and arranges the cellulose during the tree's life cycle. But if you look at a tree on a greatly stretched time scale that gives the tree's life span the approximate duration of a lightning bolt's, what you see is that the tree is above all else a current, a channeled movement of a vast amount of water. A tree is a ground-to-air lightning bolt of water. The mass of all the cellulose is trivial compared to the amount of water that flows through it. We call the tree a thing and a lightning bolt as an action or event only because of our own biased perceptions of time scale.

On the other hand the fact that there's something that seems analogous that the ancients were wrong about doesn't show that we actually are analogously wrong about consciousness.


Correct, it's not proof or even direct evidence of that. What it does show, I think, is that if you make over-simplistic assumptions (e.g. that things that appear to exist must be material substances) you can end up with less robust models. There's nothing terribly wrong with thinking of fire as a material substance made of pointy triangles; it'll still cook your soup. But you do miss out on the useful symmetries that a more complete model reveals, such as the properties of energy and heat.
 
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The proposed metric for consciousness is called phi.

Can Integrated Information Theory Explain Consciousness?

The theory’s core claim is that a system is conscious if it possesses a property called Φ, or phi, which is a measure of the system’s “integrated information.”

Phi corresponds to the feedback between and interdependence of different parts of a system. In Consciousness, Koch equates phi to “synergy,” the degree to which a system is “more than the sum of its parts.” Phi can be a property of any entity, biological or non-biological. Even a proton can possess phi, because a proton is an emergent phenomenon stemming from the interaction of its quarks. Hence panpsychism.
I think I posted this link some time ago. The Scientific American blogger, who sounds like an intelligent layman, treats "phi" quite skeptically. But apparently it's measurable, whatever it is.

So this theory ends of proposing that some stars may possess consciousness - well that just about anything possesses some "phi" score. In reading for this thread I came upon a claim that a one-celled organism would have far greater phi than a supposedly sentient star. It has more complexity, more integrated information, connectivity, complexity ... but I'm not well-enough informed to speculate on the consciousness of a paramecium.

Maybe the theory is primarily useful to stimulate debate - a part of the process of science. Theories get proposed, pushed back on, refined, improved or debunked. If this were just philosophers nattering about it I wouldn't pay much attention, but if mainstream physicists are seriously discussing it I don't dismiss it as easily.
 
If it's a chess position "where white can draw or even win", then a sufficiently powerful computer, given enough time, can prove that.
I'm trying to get it to a draw but I have poor visualization skills. It looks like black can do nothing but move the bishops around. It's white's turn to move, and there are more choices - move the king, catch one of 2 rooks or advance a pawn that will immediately be captured. I'd need a pen and paper, or maybe the actual chess pieces lined up. I do understand that if a human can do it then in theory brute force computing could also do it. In fact I can't see how it could be otherwise.

There's something Penrose said that IMO signals skepticism about a consciousness field, but now I can't remember where I saw it. His statement seemed to be that human thought could be deterministic even if it was non-computational. A statement I don't understand at all.
 
The proposed metric for consciousness is called phi.

Can Integrated Information Theory Explain Consciousness?

I think I posted this link some time ago. The Scientific American blogger, who sounds like an intelligent layman, treats "phi" quite skeptically. But apparently it's measurable, whatever it is.

So this theory ends of proposing that some stars may possess consciousness - well that just about anything possesses some "phi" score. In reading for this thread I came upon a claim that a one-celled organism would have far greater phi than a supposedly sentient star. It has more complexity, more integrated information, connectivity, complexity ... but I'm not well-enough informed to speculate on the consciousness of a paramecium.

Maybe the theory is primarily useful to stimulate debate - a part of the process of science. Theories get proposed, pushed back on, refined, improved or debunked. If this were just philosophers nattering about it I wouldn't pay much attention, but if mainstream physicists are seriously discussing it I don't dismiss it as easily.

I will say that I came up with my admittedly basic hypothesis long before I ever heard of phi or IIT. I say this not to brag, as IIT may well be wrong, but to point out to some posters on this thread that their knee-jerk ridicule is inappropriate.
 
Regarding a chess puzzle:

I'm trying to get it to a draw but I have poor visualization skills. It looks like black can do nothing but move the bishops around. It's white's turn to move, and there are more choices - move the king, catch one of 2 rooks or advance a pawn that will immediately be captured. I'd need a pen and paper, or maybe the actual chess pieces lined up. I do understand that if a human can do it then in theory brute force computing could also do it. In fact I can't see how it could be otherwise.
You've got most of it. The spoiler explains how white can force a draw.

Because the three bishops are all restricted to black (shaded) squares, the white king can move to any white square on the board except for the one white square where the king would be moving into check by the black king. There's absolutely nothing black can do about that, so white can force a draw via the fifty-move rule. This is so obvious that even the simplest of modern chess-playing computer programs would notice it, which is why the premise of that article is laughable.
 
It's a genuine frustration to me that I don't have the maths background to look at this coherently. Realistically, I am probably never going to truly be able to judge for myself.

You may not need math as much as you think.

Einstein didn't use math in developing his theories. He used visualization tools. The math came later, when the time came to formalize what he had already worked out visually.

Einstein was good at math, but not great. He needed expert help with the math. But again, only to formalize. He had already seen the light before he even started on the math.
 
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Well, if anybody needed proof that your aim here is not to actually communicate and discuss your ideas, here it is.

Except only a moron would seek that proof, given I've made 169 posts in this thread explaining my position and discussing the topic.
 
Except only a moron would seek that proof, given I've made 169 posts in this thread explaining my position and discussing the topic.

You're right, I should have said "if anybody needed proof that your aim here is not to actually communicate and honestly discuss your ideas, here it is"
 
You're right, I should have said "if anybody needed proof that your aim here is not to actually communicate and honestly discuss your ideas, here it is"

So what's your theory? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Thanks for your valuable contribution.
 
So what's your theory? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Thanks for your valuable contribution.

That my position is that we don't yet have enough knowledge to draw a firm conclusion but that consciousness being a process of the brain seems most likely, rather than pulling something illogical and unevidenced out of my backside, isn't quite the "gotcha" you evidently think it is.
 
You may not need math as much as you think.

Einstein didn't use math in developing his theories. He used visualization tools. The math came later, when the time came to formalize what he had already worked out visually.
I'm not that great on visualization, either. Which is why the chess puzzle is still frustrating me.

I'm spatially kind of challenged. I once had to describe, in words, the way the Panama Canal worked. Even though I had watched the process, I couldn't figure out how the ship got from the Pacific level to canal height. I had to watch an online animation about 15 times before I could describe what was happening.

Also, if I take a long hike through a building to get to a certain office, I'll have to return the same way, even though a side exit may give me an obvious shortcut. My sense of direction disappears once I'm inside.
 
Regarding a chess puzzle:


You've got most of it. The spoiler explains how white can force a draw.
I appreciate the spoiler tags and still haven't peeked. I noticed RP added a green check mark to his hand-drawn version. Its existence mystifies me.

I wish there was a tool that would allow me to recreate the position, then drag pieces around to test the permutations.

When I clicked to quote your post, the spoiler type was revealed! I hastily averted my eyes.
 
I will say that I came up with my admittedly basic hypothesis long before I ever heard of phi or IIT. I say this not to brag, as IIT may well be wrong, but to point out to some posters on this thread that their knee-jerk ridicule is inappropriate.
If I understood my friend's position - a big if, as I doubt if he understood it himself - there was something happening way down at the Planck scale, and I'm pretty sure he saw the brain as holographic - in that all the information for "mind" could be found in just one neuron. Forget synapses, the scale was way smaller than that.

He didn't claim that brain architecture had nothing to do with assembling consciousness, but he did seem to feel that each neuron was its own tiny mind. (Probably complete with access to the realm of "qualia," whatever that is). He applied this single-cell organisms as well. They are pretty amazing, when you think about it. As alluded to in the Scientific American blog, that cell would have many, MANY times the "phi," or complexity, synergy etc. of a star.
 
Well, I guess that's it, then.

Unfortunate that we never got to a real discussion, I have to say. For a certain moment here I really thought baron and I could have some sort of breakthrough about something, but it's hard to do when your 'opponent' retreats into near solipsism when his argument is evidently in trouble.

I mean, we could quibble about the meaning of the word "exists", but I think most people who would want to carry the discussion forward would understand what it means in relation to actions and behaviours vs things, and instead of picking nits to bog down the thread, would accept the term for the sake of argument and move on.

And then, if behaviours/actions/processes "exist", the question can be: can consciousness be a process? Or, more precisely, can consciousness be a brain performing a process, rather than some substance, field or anything else? And since baron admitted to having no evidence for his theory, he's in no position to say no.

...which is why he went pseudo-solipsist in the first place. There was no other option.
 
Well this is where we are stuck and I don't see a way out.

"Is X true?"
"Only if you assume reality exists and the entire universe doesn't operate under random dream logic with no pattern or causality."
 
Yeah, we're stuck all right, but the notion isn't entirely unimaginable.

I can imagine a field in which random patterns appear randomly. I can imagine a field in which a random pattern could, by chance, behave as a process. I can imagine a field in which a random process could be self-perpetuating. I can imagine a field in which a self-perpetuating process could become increasingly complex and self-referencing. I can imagine a field in which an increasingly complex process might, by chance, become conscious. I can imagine a field in which a conscious process might work out how to take over the whole damn field, so that it might survive indefinitely.

Could a field in which all that could happen exist? I have no idea. I only know of a universe in which something kind of like that did happen, and the resulting conscious species became the top predator on a planet. That was a result of the interactions of 26 universe-spanning particle fields, so the theories assert.

Is there any way to investigate whether such a field as imagined above exists? I have no idea.
 
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My problem with the consciousness field is that it does not actually explain anything. There is nothing that tells us what values this field can have, and how consciousness is influenced by it.

Is this field supposed to facilitate thought also, and not just an abstract consciousness concept? How are individuals kept separate?

There is also the huge problem that only brains interact with the consciousness field, so that the problem that the OP wanted to address is not solved: to give a physical explanation to a certain concept of consciousness (where consciousness is not an emergent property of brain activity). The problem has moved from inside the brain to the interaction between the brain and the field.

In short, I think the new field theory for consciousness is worthless, or it needs to be beefed up with new forces, and a description of interactions before it can be taken seriously.
 

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