Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

Some unions (most, all?) have an option of declining to pay into the fund used to lobby and donate to campaigns so workers are not forced to support political candidates and issues they don't want to support. That kind of clause makes sense.


In Wisconsin teachers can't decline to pay their portion of union dues that go straight into the Dems coffers. They can, however, apply to have that money returned to them at the end of the year (without interest, even though it's basically a loan). Some teachers who take advantage of this will donate their portion to the Repubs as retaliation.

I'd spend it on beer, but that's just me. :)
 
WildCat, your perception of what teachers actually earn is much higher than the data on this site of teacher salary by state.

Illinois does pay the most (cost of living is not leveled in this comparison), but the salaries are much lower than you've posted. Starting salary: $37,500 Average: $58,686

The site is copyright 2011, I don't see what year the figures are from but they look to be 2010-2011 looking at one of the comments discussing a lower figure for Texas in 2008-09 than the chart shows:
Unfortunately, many states start their teachers out well below what is listed here as "starting salary." Texas is one of those states. Our 2008-2009 starting salary is $27,000. I understand that's minimum, but most of our teachers actually do start at that. In fact, to attract more potentials, I saw a school advertising that they paid $2200 over the state minimum. Some incentive! 8-( Here's the link, FMI http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/school.finance/salary/

Wisconsin OTOH shows Starting salary: $25,222 Average: $46,390.
 
In Wisconsin teachers can't decline to pay their portion of union dues that go straight into the Dems coffers. They can, however, apply to have that money returned to them at the end of the year (without interest, even though it's basically a loan). Some teachers who take advantage of this will donate their portion to the Repubs as retaliation.

I'd spend it on beer, but that's just me. :)
So teachers can decline all but the interest on it which given current interest rates that could be all of 10 cents. :rolleyes:
 
Wisconsin State Pension financial statement shows only 16.3 million in unfunded liabilities in 2009 for 88,119 participants including current and retired employees. It represents only a 0.3 million dollar increase over 2008. There's nothing in the report that suggests state employee pensions are the problem in the state budget.

The funded status of the ASLCC Program is a measure of the extent to which the program has accumulated enough assets to pay the benefits earned by participants. The funded ratio is the ratio of plan assets to estimated future liabilities. The assets can be measured using the current fair market value of assets or the smoothed funding value of assets. The fair value measurement gives a more timely measurement, but can be extremely volatile. The funding value measurement is less representative of current market values, but better presents the funding trends without the year-to-year volatility.

The funding value-based funded ratio was unchanged at 99.3% funded.
emphasis mine
 
I'm not sure what the interest would amount to. When I get a loan, the lender sets the interest rate, and I agree to it if it seems fair.:p
You are talking about the cost of not having that money for a year. What would the person reasonably have earned on that money, not what could they earn in an unrealistic fantasy.

If you compare it to the earnings you'd get for loaning it out, you'd need to include administration costs and consider the earnings on small amounts and short term loans. You can't just arbitrarily declare you could have earned credit card rates for example, because that's not what the lender would have been able to actually do with the money.

It's a pittance. Got any money in a savings account? You are getting about .10% in interest at the moment.
 
And what about the unions for the city and county governments? Have they agreed as well?
Since they negotiated their last contracts do you have one shred of reliable evidence that any 'unreasonable got the government by the balls demands' really existed?

All you have is the Repub dominated state government making unfounded claims the unions are the cause of the budget problems. See any independent analysis that isn't coming from that Repub group?

Maybe there are op eds in reliable news sources (IE something besides Fox, the WSJ, or other business propaganda publication) before this all started that say what a problem the unions were for the cash strapped governments? Find some. Let's take a look at this problem honestly.
 
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You are talking about the cost of not having that money for a year. What would the person reasonably have earned on that money, not what could they earn in an unrealistic fantasy.

If you compare it to the earnings you'd get for loaning it out, you'd need to include administration costs and consider the earnings on small amounts and short term loans. You can't just arbitrarily declare you could have earned credit card rates for example, because that's not what the lender would have been able to actually do with the money.

It's a pittance. Got any money in a savings account? You are getting about .10% in interest at the moment.

No.

A person can set the interest rate at which they loan money at whatever they want, without taking into account what it would cost them to not have that money for a year. I can loan my neighbor a hundred dollars and tell him the interest rate is zero percent or two hundred percent, it's up to me. He doesn't have to take it, of course, but that depends on how badly he needs the money.

Of course, it's different when you're being forced to make the loan...:D
 
All the teachers that called in 'sick' should be fired if their collective bargaining agreement has a no strike clause. A mass 'sick in' is a 'wildcat' strike.

A couple years ago while working in Prudhoe Bay, AK some members of my crew called in 'sick' and were fired for it. Fifteen guys called in sick in protest of a decision that our companies upper management made. We have a no strike clause, specifically no 'wildcat' strikes. They were all fired. Our union stood by the decision to fire the workers, no grievances were honored. No recourse, not eligible for rehire with the company and are not eligible to work on BP leases or projects. As a foreman I hated it, I lost a great welder and some really good electricians. I quit a few weeks after they were fired. I tried to reason with management regarding the original reason for the 'sick in', they wouldn't budge and I voted by taking my skills elsewhere.
 
Like I said, let workers choose to not pay Union dues.

But then they must give up ALL Union benefits, including Union negotiated raises, annual leave, sick leave, grievance rights, etc etc etc.

not really practical unless the benefits they forgo are spelled out in the union negotiated contract, which still amounts to the union negotiating the wages and benefit limits for non-members.
 
not really practical unless the benefits they forgo are spelled out in the union negotiated contract, which still amounts to the union negotiating the wages and benefit limits for non-members.

The construction industry in New Mexico is not fully unionized. Some labor groups (such as carpenters) may belong to a union, but don't have to. They get different wages for doing the same jobs.

The non-union guys actually make a little bit more money in the long run. I'm not entirely certain why, but this is what the foreman of a $200 million construction project told me and I'm inclined to believe him.
 
The construction industry in New Mexico is not fully unionized. Some labor groups (such as carpenters) may belong to a union, but don't have to. They get different wages for doing the same jobs.

this tells us nothing about whether they benefit from the existence of a union or not so it's basically just a red herring
 
Whether it is a topic of Wisconsin union, or Cash for Clunker, or Minimum Wage, or ACORN, or Florida Train, or Affirmative Action, boil down to a single deeper, more fundamental topic:
a) “merit base” versus b) “everyone should get equal result”
In other words Socialism versus Capitalism
Some of us are more inclined to one side or the other.

Statistically speaking, people who feel they are not as competent as others would favor (a) others will favor (b)

I think, worker should have the right for collective bargaining provided union membership (including membership fee) is voluntary/optional.
Let's analyze this post.

Cash for Clunkers: Analysis: pisses off people who didn't get theirs. Seeing the neighbor who got a free discount on a new auto causes resentment. Hearing in the news about the million dollar salaries and golden parachutes for financial institution execs who gambled with depositors' money and lost it causing taxpayers to have to bail said banks, too abstract to feel more than mild transient outrage.

Bailing out GM and the financial institutions had the same goal of slowing unemployment and ending the recession. Whether you agreed with the bailout or not, there was a net greater benefit of getting gas guzzling autos off the road and putting some money into the hands of consumers instead of into the hands of the rich. But that was overridden by the resentment that one neighbor got a benefit the other did did not get.

Minimum wage: The minimum wage serves an important purpose. It prevents employers from creating abject poverty in times of high unemployment which would also contribute to the downward spiral during a recession. Minimum wage prevents employers from paying workers such little pay they cannot pay for food and shelter, necessitating taxpayers subsidize the employer by making up the difference when low wages create destitute workers.

Is it better to let the market determine the minimum wage? The evidence supports the conclusion a minimum wage is an important aspect in a capitalist economy. Workers are not a product. You cannot treat labor the same way you treat a commodity. Treating employees as a commodity, completely subject to market forces, is akin to returning to a peasant economy. And we know from history such a situation results in revolutions. Libertarians need to be careful what they wish for.

Will minimum wage limit jobs? Not necessarily. And employer isn't going to hire two people when one is all that is needed. A cheaper product or service might increase demand, but when fewer workers can afford to spend, demand does not necessarily increase. I doubt there is evidence lower wages corrects or prevents a recession.

ACORN: Anyone who thinks ACORN was evil it was portrayed to be hasn't bothered to look beyond the campaign to destroy it. They were responsible for registering a lot of new Democratic voters during Obama's campaign and ACORN became a Repub target because of it. Before that ACORN was used to trump up fake voter fraud charges to distract from the real voter fraud that was going on by 'caging' and manipulating voter access using tactics by Repub controlled election boards. This has all been thoroughly documented for anyone who bothers to actually look.
ACORN
On December 7, 2009, the former Massachusetts Attorney General, after an independent internal investigation of ACORN, found the videos that had been released appeared to have been edited, "in some cases substantially". He found no evidence of criminal conduct by ACORN employees, but concluded that ACORN had poor management practices that contributed to unprofessional actions by a number of its low-level employees.[90][91][92][93] On March 1, 2010, the District Attorney's office for Brooklyn determined that the videos were "heavily edited"[94] and concluded that there was no criminal wrongdoing by the ACORN staff in the videos from the Brooklyn ACORN office.[95][96] On April, 1, 2010, an investigation by the California Attorney General found the videos from Los Angeles, San Diego and San Bernardino to be "heavily edited,"[8] and the investigation did not find evidence of criminal conduct on the part of ACORN employees.[8][83] On June 14, 2010, the US Government Accountability Office (GAO) released its findings which showed that ACORN evidenced no sign that it, or any of its related organizations, mishandled any federal money they had received.[97][98]


Florida Train I assume you mean the FL Guv turning down federal funds for the high speed rail project. I don't have an opinion other than if I cared and had the time, I'd want to know if it was a campaign stunt and/or if the planned high speed rail was more influenced by the companies that stood to get the contracts. But the concept, we would all benefit from investing in our future infrastructure, is a very legitimate means of stimulating the economy during a recession. Historical evidence, not economic ideology, supports that position.

Affirmative Action: Otherwise called, resentment when one perceives it affects oneself, but people could care less when the shoe was on the other foot. This is old news.


Then there is the summary:
a) “merit base” versus b) “everyone should get equal result” or Socialism versus Capitalism; "Some of us are more inclined to one side or the other" In other words, no need to think things through if all you need to know is, is it socialism or capitalism.

The issue should be, what mix of the two is best. Having an oversimplified position of good/bad, good/evil black/white creates the conditions which are ripe for being influenced by the propaganda machines.
 
Don't lie. The Republicans are the current majority. They have the votes to do this. The minority is obstructing (illegally I might add).
Conflating two different issues noted.

How about discussing your issues as the two different subjects they are?

Thunder: "i have no problem with workers having the right to opt-out of paying their Union dues, as long as they understand that they will NOT be getting Union raises, Union negotiated benefits (annual leave, sick leave, paternity/maternity leave, grievance rights, etc etc)."

Newtons Bit: "That would also give them the ability to form their own unions with different goals in mind. Imagine that, liberty!"

Skeptic Ginger: "The unions are there because the majority want them there. Imagine that, democracy!"

Newtons Bit: "Don't lie. The Republicans are the current majority. They have the votes to do this. The minority is obstructing (illegally I might add)."
Do you see how you shifted goal posts there from talking about the issue of closed shop unions to talking about the Repub controlled state government's right to nullify a legal contract between workers and their employer?
 
Conflating two different issues noted.

How about discussing your issues as the two different subjects they are?

Do you see how you shifted goal posts there from talking about the issue of closed shop unions to talking about the Repub controlled state government's right to nullify a legal contract between workers and their employer?

Oh please. You went off on the "the majority wants it!" tangent first. The majority DOESN'T want the unions as they are.
 
No.

A person can set the interest rate at which they loan money at whatever they want, without taking into account what it would cost them to not have that money for a year. I can loan my neighbor a hundred dollars and tell him the interest rate is zero percent or two hundred percent, it's up to me. He doesn't have to take it, of course, but that depends on how badly he needs the money.

Of course, it's different when you're being forced to make the loan...:D
It's not realistic to make fantasy claims about the cost of deferred wages.

The deferred reimbursement of the union dues has a real cost. It's a pittance.

You are arguing a different subject, an individual's perceived loss because they didn't have a choice in the matter.

The individual has a net gain in wages partly due to the union using that "borrowed" political donation. So whatever lost interest you feel the individual had a right to demand because choice was denied is still a wash.
 
this tells us nothing about whether they benefit from the existence of a union or not so it's basically just a red herring

How so? The wages are different. What other things should we look at? Safety? OSHA controls all of that now.
 
Oh please. You went off on the "the majority wants it!" tangent first. The majority DOESN'T want the unions as they are.
I'm happy to discuss both issues with you. But conflating them isn't a discussion.

In this case the 'public' you speak of is the employer. You are claiming the employer, like if the stockholders outnumber the employees, constitutes a majority and should be able to dissolve a union.

And I already discussed why it wasn't practical to have the public vote on an employment contract with government employees. If you ended up with 20% or more workers walking off the job because uninformed members of the public got involved in the contract approval, the process would be too slow to make a correction. It would be a mess if those job leavers were teachers or nurses and you had your hands tied to be able to fix it..
 
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