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Protests in Iran

Very brave, these protesters.

There's protests, and then there's protests. It's one thing to march around in the US, or in (most of) Europe, even given the ******* police in the former. But it's quite another to go out and protest like this in Russia, for instance, those guys there right now; and in China, for instance; and yes, in Iran. These guys --- and ladies --- run a very real risk of getting physically assaulted en masse, maybe killed, the state going after their families maybe if it comes to that.

Very, very brave. Let's hope it gets them somewhere, other than merely the hospital and the prison and the grave.
 
ZiprHead said:
It's illegal for women to cut their hair.
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But apparently, it is legal for the "Supreme Leader" to become outrageously wealthy while his morality thugs beat women to death for failing to match his spiritual purity.

In 2013, Reuters stated that Khamenei controlled a business empire worth around $95 billion, a sum exceeding the value of his oil-rich nation's current annual petroleum exports.
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Chanakya said:
Very brave, these protesters.

There's protests, and then there's protests. It's one thing to march around in the US, or in (most of) Europe, even given the ******* police in the former. But it's quite another to go out and protest like this in Russia, for instance, those guys there right now; and in China, for instance; and yes, in Iran. These guys --- and ladies --- run a very real risk of getting physically assaulted en masse, maybe killed, the state going after their families maybe if it comes to that.

Very, very brave. Let's hope it gets them somewhere, other than merely the hospital and the prison and the grave.
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Figures inevitably vary, but it's estimated somewhere between 40 and 80-odd protesters have already been killed, and hundreds arrested.
It just shows the strength of feeling among ordinary Iranians, especially the young. The risks they are taking in order to express their opposition to the regime speaks volumes.
They will get there. Maybe not this time, but sooner or later, this odious regime will fall. I would imagine, given the nature of the slogans being used, that a more secular and democratic government may well follow.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63047363
 
Evin Prison is near Tehran, Iran holds many political prisoners and foreign nationals there.

With the past three weeks of protest the prison population has greatly increased.

Now the prison is on fire and there are sounds of gunfire heard. A crowd has gathered outside the prison shouting "Death to Khamemi". Nobody has come out of the prison, and there are reports of mortar fire being directed from outside the prison to the inside.

This twitter link has some pretty dramatic video, apparently from across the street.

The protests are not stopping.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Also 'clerics, get lost'.
But I suppose some will insist that this is still not evidence that Iranians are protesting against their Islamic government. :rolleyes:
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I'm not completely sure I get this.

Obviously they're protesting the government and obviously the government is Islamic and I'm sure nobody disputes that. Are you saying that the protests are because the government is Islamic, and some people here deny that that is the cause?

I am not convinced of the latter. Religious people often have objections to other religions, including those that share the same name as their own or are generally similar to their own but with just a few prominent differences that they object to. How do we determine that most of the protesters wouldn't be happy with, or even prefer, a new government that's still Islamic but just not what they consider the bad kind of Islamic? How do we determine that they even admit that the government is Islamic at all instead of going with ye olde "well no true Muslim would act the way this government acts" line of thinking and wanting the government to be replaced with one that would be what they consider truly Islamic?
 
Delvo said:
I'm not completely sure I get this.

Obviously they're protesting the government and obviously the government is Islamic and I'm sure nobody disputes that. Are you saying that the protests are because the government is Islamic, and some people here deny that that is the cause?

I am not convinced of the latter. Religious people often have objections to other religions, including those that share the same name as their own or are generally similar to their own but with just a few prominent differences that they object to. How do we determine that most of the protesters wouldn't be happy with, or even prefer, a new government that's still Islamic but just not what they consider the bad kind of Islamic? How do we determine that they even admit that the government is Islamic at all instead of going with ye olde "well no true Muslim would act the way this government acts" line of thinking and wanting the government to be replaced with one that would be what they consider truly Islamic?
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The specific thing that triggered this was women's rights as exemplified by they headscarf requirement. That requirement motived is by the religious belief. People are tearing down and burning photos of the Ayatollah, chanting "Death to the Ayatollah" and "Death to Khamemi". At an absolute minimum, that's a hard push against the Shia religious hierarchy's control of the government.

But to balance that - in many of the protests there are women who still wear the headscarves, marching right alongside the women who took theirs's off.

I think one key thing is that Iran doesn't have a well organized domestic opposition movement. Plenty of opposition, but with little leadership or organization (because they all get killed or imprisoned).

So I think they are probably not all in full specific agreement on what they are marching for. Clearly less forced religious mandates, probably less or no religious control of the government, probably more free speech. But they don't seem to be marching to end Shia Islam altogether, as evidenced by many of the marching women who still choose to wear the headscarf. There appear to still be many religiously observant people marching in the protests alongside those who want freedom from all that.

Once a religion assumes full formal control of a nation's government, it must be hard to disentangle it without appearing to want to end that religion altogether. How do you balance being religious vs. not wanting a government to be controlled by religion vs. the religion's formal leadership insisting that God demands that they control the government?


These seem to be the biggest protests since the Shia Islamic Ayatollahs fully consolidated their power. But I don't think the government is frightened or concerned about being overthrown. If they were they would not be shipping so many drones and ammo to Russia. Iran probably needs the currency from Russia (and may be making them pay in hard [non-Ruble] currency) but seems to also feel like Iran won't need all of the weapons and ammo themselves.
 
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Cosmic Yak said:
Also 'clerics, get lost'.
But I suppose some will insist that this is still not evidence that Iranians are protesting against their Islamic government. :rolleyes:
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And I am amazed why people who think they are "progressives" defend a right wing government ran by religious fanatics.
 
Chanakya said:
Very brave, these protesters.

There's protests, and then there's protests. It's one thing to march around in the US, or in (most of) Europe, even given the ******* police in the former. But it's quite another to go out and protest like this in Russia, for instance, those guys there right now; and in China, for instance; and yes, in Iran. These guys --- and ladies --- run a very real risk of getting physically assaulted en masse, maybe killed, the state going after their families maybe if it comes to that.

Very, very brave. Let's hope it gets them somewhere, other than merely the hospital and the prison and the grave.
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There are signs you might see armed resistence.
 
Delvo said:
As quiet as a figment of the imagination
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arthwollipot said:
Who are those people?
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catsmate said:
Who is doing so?
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Heh. I'm not going to bother digging up specific posts, pointing fingers and naming names. People know who they are.

Generally speaking:

Some people have been saying for years that the Iranian regime is, in terms of Middle East stability and the shaky pax imposed by the US-Saudi axis, the greater of two evils. That it is a state sponsor of terror beyond even what Saudi Arabia and Ba'athist Iraq did and do. That it will certainly exploit any easing of restrictions to further advance their nuclear weapons program. That once armed with nuclear weapons, they will certainly use them to bully the region, further destabilize it, and attempt to expand their toxic, cancerous regime in the resulting chaos.

Some other people have been saying that all of the above is either negligible, or American imperialist lies. That Iran has a right to a "peaceful" nuclear program, and that the international community should do more to indulge them in this. That the Iranian regime gets a bad rap and the Saudis are the real villains.

In broad strokes, those are the two competing schools of thought regarding Iran and desirable policy towards Iran. You, reading this, will know best which of those two schools more closely aligns with your own views, and informs your arguments about Iranian policy.

It is my hope that the knowledge of Iran siding with Russia against Ukraine, and supplying Putin with drone-missiles to continue his terror bombing campaign, will encourage many people who subscribe to the second school of thought, to reconsider the first school, and conclude that this regime are bad people who should never be allowed any opportunity to advance any kind of nuclear program or precursor program. It is my hope that these same people will also realize that what Iran is doing to help Russia destabilize Ukraine is exactly the kind of thing they've been doing for decades, wherever they could.

It's like Orwell said about pacifism during World War 2: It objectively aided the Nazis, to the detriment of the Allies. Someone can protest all they want that they don't support the Iranian regime. They might even believe it. But if they support the opportunity for Iran to advance its nuclear program, then it doesn't really matter what else they say. Where it counts, where it does the most harm to regional stability and world peace, they're entirely in the tank for the Iranian regime.
 
The Atheist said:
I'm just sitting back relaxing and puffing my cigar as I ponder the number of times I've been assured over the past half century that hijabs and niqabs and the other accoutrements of islam aren't oppressive to women.
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I don't know if this was seen as just too empty a flex for others to address, but for those who don't understand the difference, being allowed to do something (like wear a hijab) freely of your own choice is empowering while being forced to do something with threat of torture and death is oppressive.

This has been 'oppression for forth graders'.

theprestige said:
It is my hope that the knowledge of Iran siding with Russia against Ukraine, and supplying Putin with drone-missiles to continue his terror bombing campaign, will encourage many people who subscribe to the second school of thought, to reconsider the first school, and conclude that this regime are bad people who should never be allowed any opportunity to advance any kind of nuclear program or precursor program.
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Almost like the US should never have ended the JCPOA. Shocker.
 
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