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Proselytising Skeptism

RamblingOnwards

Critical Thinker
R
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
417
*shy wave* Hi everyone!

This is the question that finally caused me to stop lurking and start posing:

To what extent, and in what way, do you personally proselytise skepticism? (I'm asking for advice, as well as purely out of curiosity)

I used to be an uncommitted skeptic - that is, I didn't really believe anything until I investigated it, but I was willing to hold it in my mind as 'maybe true' without much concern. I had friends that believed in auras, astrology, etc. and while I poked fun at the silliest of the ideas, by and large I was willing to at least act like I believed it too.

Over the last couple of years my position has hardened. I now find it silly to believe in things just because it would be nice/scary if they were true (except for faster than light travel and free will. Those you'll have to scrape out of my mind with a rusty spork). I have also grown a lot less tolerant of people who do. I won't even carry on a debate with people who think 'creation science' is a science, and I condemn people who recommend alternative medicine as being immoral - risking the health of others through their own negligence. I just can't bring myself to ignore silly statements the way I used to.

The thing is, I think I was probably doing more to convince people of the value of the scientific method before. Back when I was saying things like "when we're dealing with encounters with ghosts, just be sure that it's not sleep paralysis first" instead of "Ghosts? Well, bring me one documented proof of the existence of ghosts, (no, not that, that's sleep paralysis) and then I'll entertain the concept that they may exist".

So I have a whole bunch of different motives here. I want:
- to educate people about the difference between a 'proof' and a 'basis for belief'.
- to defend the modern scientific method against 'ancient wisdoms'.
- not to be associated with silly concepts.
- not to waste time talking to someone who has already shown all the signs of being an idiot.

(To be clear, I have no issues with someone who states they believe in x through faith and faith alone. I can hold some very interesting conversations with them)

As you can see, some of them are contradictory. How do you handle personal interactions with believers?
 
Hi RamblingOnwards,

Speaking for myself, I never feel the urge to go out and spread the good word, forcing my opinions on others who don't want them. I figure that if I don't want Christians evangelising to me, at least I can return the favour.

What I will do is give (and explain) my opinion when the subject comes up (though I don't try to "win the argument" - just to put forward my point of view and leave it there). For example, when a colleague recently thought his house was haunted, I gave him some alternative possibilities. When another colleague was saying he didn't believe in evolution, I made clear that I did and that I felt the evidence was overwhelming. I've explained the issues with homeopathy to my parents. Having said my bit, though, I try to shut up and get on with life.
 
I am open about my atheism and skepticism if the subject comes up and has been for a few years. Since then I have found out that a suprisingly large fraction of people may have bad beliefs, however many of them doesn't take it very seriously, it's just an amusing thing to lighten up your everyday life. So when the subject of the full moon and it's effects on people came up the other day I just asked them to specify how the full moon was supposed to affect them. The danger is when you start to push people and they start to think that you think they are stupid, that is a good way to alienate people.

If we are talking about real goofballs then there is no hope of ever talking reason to them, I would suggest damage control to limit their impact on others. Challenge them to make it known that everyone does not agree. I have not met such a person yet though so I dont really know how I would react.
 
Hi RO,

Welcome to the forums, I haven't been 'de-cloaked' myself for too long.
It sounds like you've had a similar journey to me. I have gradually hardened my skeptical attitudes over the recent past.
I agree that once people find out you are 'a skeptic' they immediately harden their own viewpoint.
I found it much easier to convince people of my argument before I counted myself a proper skeptic.

As for your 4 'motives', couldn't agree more.
 
How do you handle personal interactions with believers?
Click to expand...

With care and tolerance.

First and most important rule is: You can't win.
You didn't create their belief and you won't undo it. They must do the work for themselves. You can only show them the path.

When engaging a beliver strike at the foundation of his beliefs with clarity, ONCE. Then get out of dodge. If you hammer on the foundation repeatedly, they will get defensive and hostile.

Disengage and let them explore the crack in their foundation. If you are lucky they will exploit it on their own. That's the best you can hope for.

As an example please note my signature. Heated debate over the existence of god will produce less effect than allowing casual readers to mull over my signature at their own pace.
 
apoger said:
As an example please note my signature. Heated debate over the existence of god will produce less effect than allowing casual readers to mull over my signature at their own pace.
Click to expand...

First of all, I like that quote. Secondly, I think the same kind of thing can be said of many other irrational beliefs. "Alternative" medicine, for example. Why doesn't a believer in homeopathy also accept psychic surgery? Or trepanning? Or prayer? Or coining? It is a rare alt med believer who accepts all that is crammed under that umbrella.
 
I agree - there is no way to "reason" with a believer.

I myself have had some paranormal experiences at a farm my family owns. My family has had experiences for years. However, we are skeptics. We actually have tried to find sources for these experiences. We still do. We run experiments - dropping things down stairs (family members used to hear what sounded like a bowling ball falling down the attic stairs.) We've tried making sound carry through the old heaters. We've even had people come in to see if there were caverns or streams beneath the house, to no avail. I'm a skeptic - if someone else had told me they experienced these things, I would not believe it.

If you suggest something to a believer, they get defensive right away and call you a troll-bitch. Honestly. How do they expect to have a decent conversation when they get defensive from the get-go?

They also tend to disregard the fact that you've had experiences if you don't agree with them 100%.

I'm not at the point where I feel it is acceptable to "preach" about not believing in something, but sometimes I feel like I want to. There are just some things that are ridiculous if you come back down to earth long enough to realize it. There are other things that are questionable. It all depends on the situation.
 
The best thing in my opinion that one can do to promote critical thinking and skepticism is to study both sides of an issue, which includes also recognizing the assumptions in science.

Oh, and handing out non-tracts and sticking Darwin fish on your automobiles and watching South Park. ;)
 
It was my very same frustration that you express that encouraged me to open my own, well, Church. If the religious can proselytise, why can't we? Frankly, I'm absolutely fed up with this idea that there's no way to reason with a believer. We are so outrageously outnumbered by people who believe silly things that I just can't stand by any more. I have to try.

Religion is so good at Spreading The Word that I figure, structurally at least, they must be doing something right. So I adopted the model of a Church but with a very different purpose.

I call it: The Church of Critical Thinking

It's only just opened this week. I'd love you to help me get it off the ground. You can learn more about why I started it and what I'm hoping to achieve by visiting:

http://www.churchofcriticalthinking.com
 
Sweetkb713,

Fascinating stuff. If I understand you correctly, you do not believe that the strange events at your farm have a paranormal explanation?
That's impressive, most people insert paranormal explanations in the absence of any other apparent cause. I myself have never had any experience which didn't have a mundane reason so I have never really had my skepticism 'tested'.
Some of my friends tell me, 'Wait until it happens to you, then tell me you're still skeptical', because they have attached paranormal explanations to events they couldn't otherwise explain.
No matter how much I investigate these claims, I have never seen anything remotely inexplicable. I always seem to arrive just after the event happens!

Hats off to you and welcome to the forums.
 
Oleron said:
Sweetkb713,

Fascinating stuff. If I understand you correctly, you do not believe that the strange events at your farm have a paranormal explanation?
That's impressive, most people insert paranormal explanations in the absence of any other apparent cause. I myself have never had any experience which didn't have a mundane reason so I have never really had my skepticism 'tested'.
Some of my friends tell me, 'Wait until it happens to you, then tell me you're still skeptical', because they have attached paranormal explanations to events they couldn't otherwise explain.
No matter how much I investigate these claims, I have never seen anything remotely inexplicable. I always seem to arrive just after the event happens!

Hats off to you and welcome to the forums.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I do think that the events are paranormal ... however, I'm very open to the possiblity that they are NOT. The reason that we think they are paranormal is that we have (seemingly) eliminated all the possible causes. Like I said, though, my family still tries out experiments every once in a while to see if we can find something.

I know you will all think I'm crazy after I tell the following story:

One particular event that scared me so much that I would really like to find a "real" explanation for happened a few summers ago. I was there alone getting ready for bed around 11:30pm. I heard voices, like from a late-night radio talk show, coming from the other bedroom. I know I wasn't asleep - I was sitting up in bed. I listened for a few minutes trying to pluck up my courage to go out and turn off the radio (which I obviously thought was on) but I don't like seeing my reflection in the mirror outside the door.

After at least two minutes of listening to the two male voices talking back and forth, I got up. As soon as I opened the door, the voices stopped. I went into the other room to turn off the radio, but it was off. Everything was turned to "off." Plus, it's an old radio and the only thing that works is turning the radio on - not the sleep, not the alarm, nothing else.

I figured I was hearing things. But, it was in the middle of a thunderstorm, our neighbors live several hundred yards away on both sides of the property and are separated from us by woods. Also, they are all about 90 years old and go to bed at 8pm.

I also thought maybe it was someone snooping around the house, but the dog didn't seem concerned with anything but that bedroom, and she goes wild if there is a squirrel just outside the window.

A few weeks later, my grandmother (who cannot hear without the use of her hearing aids) was awakened by three loud knocks on her window. She looked outside and nothing was there, so she figured she was dreaming. But then she heard the same thing I heard, but this time it was coming from the other bedroom. Now if it was the neighbors or burglers or a radio (which, by this time, was completely unplugged,) how could she have heard that if she didn't have her hearing aids in?

I don't know, but I want to find out! I hope I just don't find out that it was a serial killer or something ...
 
Oleron said:
No matter how much I investigate these claims, I have never seen anything remotely inexplicable. I always seem to arrive just after the event happens!
Click to expand...

That reminds me of something that happened just last night. It made me kind of see how someone might think they experienced an alien abduction or something.

I was pulling into the driveway after dark. Suddenly, this extremely bright flash of light lit up the entire car and seemed to momentarily blind me.

I had no clue what it was. I first thought my fiance had flashed a camera in my face for a joke or something. There is nothing that reflective in my driveway that could have caused such a bright flash.

I went inside the house and jokingly asked my fiance what time it was, I thought maybe I was missing time.

Well, the hall light wasn't working, but that's nothing unusual. The bulb works itself loose every few weeks. A few hours later I went upstairs to my bedroom and the light didn't work. Neither did the bathroom light.

Ah ha! I must have tripped a circuit. I went downstairs to look at our chart, and the hall, half my bedroom, half the downstairs room, and the upstairs bathroom are all on the same circuit, along with the outside motion detector light!

What must have happened was that just as the motion detector turned on the circuit tripped, causing the light to just flash on and then off, and I seemed blinded because it was dark so quickly.

I'm not saying that I ever thought it was paranormal, I knew it had to have been something wrong with the motion detector. However, if I had been someone paranoid about aliens, I might have looked at the clock and thought I had lost 5 minutes of time (I mean, who looks at the clock every minute to know the exact time when something happens?) and therefore experienced alien activity.
 
Thanks for your help, everyone! It was very informative.

I'll try not to allow myself to become entangled in arguments, but if I do indulge myself I'm definitely going to try the 'so, why don't you believe in x? / Well , that's why I don't believe in y' apporach.

But Vitner and others are right, now that I think of it - people I meet in real life (as apposed to on internet) tend not to be awfully wed to their wacky beliefs.
 
I know it's off thread a bit but I think it might be interesting to get some ideas from people as to what may be occurring here with sweetkb713.

She mentions hearing voices, kind of like a radio. When she investigated she could find no source for the noise. I am assuming, judging by the sound of her posts, that she is a sane and logical person.
She also mentions her gran had a similar experience, only this time was able to hear without her hearing aid.

I'll kick off by proposing that, in the case of the night-time voices, the thunderstorm may be key. I am a keen hill-walker and it's a well known phenomena that backpack's with a metal frame can vibrate and buzz when walking in open space during a thunderstorm. It's also well known to take cover and run far from the pack if this happens!
I'm sure also that most people have had the experience of sitting at their PC and hearing voices coming from the computer speakers, even though they are switched off. This happens a lot with budget speakers (who says I'm cheap?) which have little or no magnetic shielding. The speakers are merely picking up signals from local radio stations, probably because of atmospheric conditions - I think.

Randi has mentioned similar effects from coffee machines and other household electrical goods. (i'll try and supply the links).
Sweetkb713 mentions that the radio was old and switched off. This fits with the notion that perhaps the circuit became live after induction from a strong magnetic source. I'm on shaky scientific ground here as I don't know if a thunderstorm could produce such an effect. I have heard of strong radio/microwave sources and electrical generators causing induction effects.
I would need to clarify some details with Sweetkb:
Did the voices sound like a real person in the room or did they sound more like a radio or TV speaker? Could you even tell?
You mention you live in an isolated location- do you posess a generator?
As for the grandmother story, I have to suggest that perhaps the lady was mistaken. I'm not trying to say the old girl is bats but a simple mistake seems most likely.
 
Sweetkb713,
Perhaps you might consider starting a new post with the paranormal experience as the subject? I have posted my explanation here but would be very interested to hear the views of some of the more experienced skeptics.
If you prefer not to, that's OK.
 
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