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Proposition 89

Well, no. Eisenhower was a five-star general.

And, of course, only titled nobility can be promoted to general officers in the US Army. In fact, prior to the House of Lords reform of 1931, at least a knighthood was required in order to serve as a commissioned officer at all.

Or, possibly, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
 
Does that ad have to list me and the 20,000 other contributors?
No. As you can see from my examples, citizens would be identified collectively, with a distinction being made between in-state and out-of-state donors.

Corporations, on the other hand, would be listed individually.
 
No. As you can see from my examples, citizens would be identified collectively, with a distinction being made between in-state and out-of-state donors.

Corporations, on the other hand, would be listed individually.


Seems an extremely easy law to get around.

Exxon hires me, a citizen of the state of Arkansas, on a salary of several bazillion dollars a year. However, my duties require me to donate money to certain causes as unreimbursed business expenses (just as teachers often buy chalk out of their own pocket).

Exxon isn't paying for the ad. I, a concerned citizen of Arkansas, am. If I feel like it, I can get four or five friends to contribute a dollar each, I'll put up the other $999,995and we can make it a collective.
 
Corruption among border patrol agents is a serious problem. Maybe we should pay all the agents $1 million/year if they agree to not take bribes. That way, it would be harder to corrupt them, since they could afford to live on their salaries without bribes. This seems to be the sort of thinking behind 89.

The arguments in support of it have been highly dishonest. Various statistics have been presented from other states purporting to show how variants of 89 have worked in those states, but it's obvious that those statistics have been cherry picked, since different statistics are presented for different states. Why would they cite statistic A is state X and statistic B in state Y, unless statistic A in state Y and statistic B in state X show things getting worse? And many of the statistics aren't really relevant. For instance, having incumbants lose more often doesn't really show that CFR is working. If your real goal is to keep incumbants from being reelected for some reason, why take care of it directly, and pass term limits, rather than bothering with CFR? They also cited the percentage of races "decided" by money, and it was something like 70% before, 10% after. And where did that 70% figure come from? It's the percentage won by the person spending the most. Well, one woulds expect 50% just by chance, so it's really only 20%. And correlation doesn't equal causation, so even those can't be determined to "decided" by money for sure. And now what about that "after" number"? Surely they don't expect us to believe that only 10% are now won by the person spending the most. Clearly, they're using two completely different methods to calculate their numbers.

Despite having no real evidence, they dismiss studies that show that CFR doesn't work as "bought". Apparently we should ignore the one side that has evidence because they allegedly have an agenda.

But whereas people join pressure groups, and contribute to the expenses of those pressure groups, in order that those pressure groups should affect the political process, they do not become employees of a corporation and thus contribute to the profits of that corporation in order that the corporation should be able to affect the political process.
The motivations of the employees are irrelevant. Corporations are formed by shareholders, not employees. Employees have no rights to the profits of a corporation.

I don't see why money should be considered a protected form of speech.
You have it backwards. It is the promotors of CFR that are claiming that speech is money.

Why is money different from face stabbing?
Are you seriously asking that question? "Why is money different from face stabbing?" That's practically sig worthy.

I have an idea.

Couldn't you require groups paying for advertizing to sign their name?
There are some such requirements. I don't know what they are eactly. But why should people have to report who they are? When someone votes for someone, they don't have to say "this vote provided by..." Why should speech be different? Shouldn't anonymity be recognized as a crucial part of free speech? Part of the problem with the current system is that no one wants to support challengers for fear of retribution from the incumbant.

Anyone who took money from corporations, rather than individuals, by whatever roundabout means, would have to credit those corporations for their support in their adverts. Anyone taking money from outside the state, ditto.
There are constitutional restrictions on discriminating against residents of other states. And all money ultimately comes from individuals. Corporations are just instruments people use.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Are you seriously asking that question? "Why is money different from face stabbing?" That's practically sig worthy.

Obviously there are some fairly intense differences, (the harm caused by face-harming is far more direct than the harm caused by giving money to politicians) but I don't see what differences there are that are relevant to the situation at hand. When you give money to politicians, you cause harm. This harm is not a result of the message which you are trying to express ("I like this candidate") but the method by which you express it. Therefore, it seems analogous.
 
When you give money to politicians, you cause harm. This harm is not a result of the message which you are trying to express ("I like this candidate") but the method by which you express it. Therefore, it seems analogous.
You haven't explained how it causes harm, or why it is due to the method rather than the content. Furthermore, the whole point of the First Amendment is to protect speech from legislation on the basis that people don't like it, which is eactly the attitude that you are expressing when you say that it causes "harm". No one tries to ban speech just for the fun of it. They do it because they honestly believe that society (or at least, the part they care about) is better off without it; that is, because they consider it harmful. If speech can be banned because it's harmful, that makes free speech a dead letter. Many people say that pornography or blashemy or hate speech is harmful. So is it okay to ban them?
 

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