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Proposition 8 Struck Down!!!

RandFan said:
The Bible, thank goodness, isn't the source of our laws. According to the Bible eating shellfish and wearing clothes of mixed fabrics is immoral. Working on the sabbath is immoral. Taking the lords name in vain is immoral. Slaves who don't listen to their owners is immoral.
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And capitalism, it is all about coveting after all.
 
Upchurch said:
Just so we're perfectly clear, Robert, morality is not a legal issue. I think your anti-gay bigotry is amoral, but that is no reason to make your hatred illegal so long as you aren't harming others. Just because you think homosexuality is amoral is not reason enough to make it illegal.

We're talking about the legality of gay marriage.
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<nitpick> I think the highlighted should be "immoral". <nitpick>



quadraginta said:
ponderingturtle said:
But face it we need to punish people for working on the Sabbath.
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Which one?
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Mob Rules.
 
The problem with gay marriage for some people is the "tell me who your friends are" argument. I think most people would be far more willing to consider gay marriage if so many of its most vocal supporters were not so obviously AGAINST marriage by regular couples -- claiming for years, indeed decades, that marriage is a prison to enslave women and ensure the continuation of the patriarchy, that there's nothing wrong with single motherhood, etc., etc.

For them, gay marriage (their claims to the contrary notwithstanding), is simply as a tool to attack regular marriage. They don't really give a hoot about gays; they are just opportunistic.

If, for some reason, tomorrow all gays declared they hate marriage and would never consider demeaning themselves by joining this disguisting and antiquated institution, then the very next microsecond many of the very folks now speaking (for a change) about the beauty and importance of marriage and family stability would turn around on a dime and attack regular marriage that way.

Americans don't hate gays, for the most part. But they are justly suspicious of the dishonest claims of self-proclaimed "enlighted" folks who see it as their job to force the rest of them to agree with their views and be "liberated" from the alleged moral darkness that surrounds them. This is the way of totalitarianism.
 
Weird Science said:
The problem with gay marriage for some people is the "tell me who your friends are" argument. I think most people would be far more willing to consider gay marriage if so many of its most vocal supporters were not so obviously AGAINST marriage by regular couples -- claiming for years, indeed decades, that marriage is a prison to enslave women and ensure the continuation of the patriarchy, that there's nothing wrong with single motherhood, etc., etc.

For them, gay marriage (their claims to the contrary notwithstanding), is simply as a tool to attack regular marriage. They don't really give a hoot about gays; they are just opportunistic.

If, for some reason, tomorrow all gays declared they hate marriage and would never consider demeaning themselves by joining this disguisting and antiquated institution, then the very next microsecond many of the very folks now speaking (for a change) about the beauty and importance of marriage and family stability would turn around on a dime and attack regular marriage that way.

Americans don't hate gays, for the most part. But they are justly suspicious of the dishonest claims of self-proclaimed "enlighted" folks who see it as their job to force the rest of them to agree with their views and be "liberated" from the alleged moral darkness that surrounds them. This is the way of totalitarianism.
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And your proof of any of the above is where?
 
Weird Science said:
I think most people would be far more willing to consider gay marriage if so many of its most vocal supporters were not so obviously AGAINST marriage by regular couples -- claiming for years, indeed decades, that marriage is a prison to enslave women and ensure the continuation of the patriarchy, that there's nothing wrong with single motherhood, etc., etc.
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You're saying that a significant number of proponents of gay marriage are against heterosexual marriage? Can you provide some examples please? This is definitely counter to my experience with people who are in favor of marriage equality (many of whom are married heterosexuals).

ETA: By the way, the view you express (although I doubt it's a common one as you claim) isn't hypocritical. One can believe that marriage is a prison, etc. and still believe that gays should have equal rights to enter into that prison if they want to.

-Bri
 
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Robert Prey said:
Your ad hominems duly noted. Fortunately, Nature has seen to it that homosexuals cannot procreate, thus keeping their population in relative check.
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Note that you have no serious response, no credible case against gay couples having equal rights to straight couples. Imagine if you were to make a statement in a courtroom, "your honor, gays shouldn't be allowed to marry because they'll stop straight couples from reproducing, thus ending the species" -- you'd be laughed out of the courtroom. Its really so bad it hardly merits refutation.

Actually your comments work in my favor. People reading them can readily see that the opposition to gay rights has no basis in law, reason, or certainly not morality. Its not even rooted in religion, because 90% of the people who attend LGBT groups like PFLAG and GLSEN are Christian; in Omaha, the PFLAG president and her wife are members of the church where our meetings are held -- religious opposition against gays is by no means universal.

It's just so readily evident to everyone that the opposition is rooted in an irrational prejudice toward gay people, no surprise the anti-gay marriage movement will fail. When it does, and gay people enjoy marriage equality, and the doomsday "breaking down the fabric of society / end of the human species" nonsense never materializes, everyone will wonder why marriage equality was so controversial in the first place. I'm fairly confident that anti-gay bigots today will be maligned and vilified as no better than racists and anti-semites -- same irrational prejudice, same goofy "arguments", same bigotry, just two sides of the same coin.

As an LGBT person, and someone with many LGBT friends, I do have a dog in the gay marriage debate. I'm thankful to see our civil rights gaining serious traction in the country and the rest of the world.
 
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Weird Science said:
The problem with gay marriage for some people is the "tell me who your friends are" argument. I think most people would be far more willing to consider gay marriage if so many of its most vocal supporters were not so obviously AGAINST marriage by regular couples -- claiming for years, indeed decades, that marriage is a prison to enslave women and ensure the continuation of the patriarchy, that there's nothing wrong with single motherhood, etc., etc.

For them, gay marriage (their claims to the contrary notwithstanding), is simply as a tool to attack regular marriage. They don't really give a hoot about gays; they are just opportunistic.

If, for some reason, tomorrow all gays declared they hate marriage and would never consider demeaning themselves by joining this disguisting and antiquated institution, then the very next microsecond many of the very folks now speaking (for a change) about the beauty and importance of marriage and family stability would turn around on a dime and attack regular marriage that way.

Americans don't hate gays, for the most part. But they are justly suspicious of the dishonest claims of self-proclaimed "enlighted" folks who see it as their job to force the rest of them to agree with their views and be "liberated" from the alleged moral darkness that surrounds them. This is the way of totalitarianism.
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WTF are you talking about? Is this an attempt to link proponents of LGBT-rights with "radical feminists"?


ETA: I can assure that I, nor anyone I know, ever claimed "that marriage is a prison to enslave women and ensure the continuation of the patriarchy". I'm not sure I've ever even used "patriarchy" in a sentence.
 
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So let me get this straight: homosexuality is icky and gross and unnatural and nature has ensured that not many homosexuals will be born, but if gay marriage is legal, hordes of heretofore straight people will suddenly decide to be homosexuals?

I try to resist the temptation to speculate about homophobes being closet cases, but sometimes they make it pretty obvious.
 
Robert Prey said:
Baloney.
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No, thanks, I prefer turkey as my luncheon meat.
What specifically do you find faulty in my post you are responding to, and what evidence do you have to support that opinion?

Robert Prey said:
Your ad hominems duly noted. Fortunately, Nature has seen to it that homosexuals cannot procreate, thus keeping their population in relative check.
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Homosexuals can and do procreate, just not via homosexual sex. Also most homosexuals, such as myself, have heterosexual parents, and children of homosexuals are about as likely to be homosexual as children of heterosexuals, so your claim is just bizarre and has zero basis in reality, as does pretty much everything you have posted in this thread so far.
 
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Robert Prey said:
Your ad hominems duly noted. Fortunately, Nature has seen to it that homosexuals cannot procreate, thus keeping their population in relative check.
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Too bad it's all the straight people having the gay babies.

And has been pointed out, homosexuals can, and DO procreate. Women can do artificial insemination, and men can donate sperm. Nothing stopping them.
 
Robert Prey said:
The Constitution does not empower any court to repeal the Laws of Nature nor the rights, privileges and immunities bestowed upon married couples, male and female, and their progeny as defined by thousands of years of custom and usage and the Laws of Nature as well.
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I enjoy how you present your thought in stilted, highfalutin' language, but the central idea is nothing but mold and rot.

A crap sandwich with fries served on fine china does not suddenly morph into 4-star cuisine.
 
Regnad Kcin said:
Snort. Yeah, that's gonna happen, you just wait!

Really, friend, try to avoid words like "logical." No thanks needed.
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It looks like gay marriage may pass in WA state this year.

OMG I can't wait. I'm going to ditch Karen and find me a gay person to marry.
 
Shalamar said:
And has been pointed out, homosexuals can, and DO procreate. Women can do artificial insemination, and men can donate sperm. Nothing stopping them.
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In addition to that, an inordinate number of gay couples have children from previously heterosexual relationships. I personally know people who fall into the following categories:

- A lovely bisexual woman had a child with a man, they split, now she's in a relationship with another woman, they're raising the child together.

- Many gay men "play it straight" for years in hetero relationships, they have kids, but it just doesn't work out in the end. They leave their wives to start relationships with men.

- Last night I met two women who shared a story with me of how they realized they were lesbian later in life (early 30s and early 50s respectively), both had children, both are presently in stable relationships with their wives.

- Many transgender women transition later in life after having a family, most of the time this breaks up a marriage. These women may have relationships with men or other women in the future.

I believe the 2010 census indicated some 25-30% of gay couples are raising children. This percentage will include children were conceived in prior heterosexual relationships, children adopted or fostered by same-gender foster parents, and children conceived though in-vitro or surrogate mothers.

My favorite "modern family" story is the life of Christine McGinn, a transwoman who, prior to her SRS, banked her sperm. After meeting her cisgender wife, they decided to have a child, so they used her sperm have a child with her wife, their child was conceived and born quite healthy. While her wife was pregnant, Christine took hormones to promote lactation, which allowed her to nurse her own child. She and her wife were featured on Oprah's "real modern family" episode, they were such a lovely couple :)
 
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Weird Science said:
The problem with gay marriage for some people is the "tell me who your friends are" argument. I think most people would be far more willing to consider gay marriage if so many of its most vocal supporters were not so obviously AGAINST marriage by regular couples -- claiming for years, indeed decades, that marriage is a prison to enslave women and ensure the continuation of the patriarchy, that there's nothing wrong with single motherhood, etc., etc.
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You are conflating and confusing things.

For them, gay marriage (their claims to the contrary notwithstanding), is simply as a tool to attack regular marriage. They don't really give a hoot about gays; they are just opportunistic.
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Could you give us an example?

If, for some reason, tomorrow all gays declared they hate marriage and would never consider demeaning themselves by joining this disguisting and antiquated institution, then the very next microsecond many of the very folks now speaking (for a change) about the beauty and importance of marriage and family stability would turn around on a dime and attack regular marriage that way.
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I really wouldn't give a damn. I love my wife and am happy to be married to her. I don't need anyone's validation.

Americans don't hate gays, for the most part. But they are justly suspicious of the dishonest claims of self-proclaimed "enlighted" folks who see it as their job to force the rest of them to agree with their views and be "liberated" from the alleged moral darkness that surrounds them. This is the way of totalitarianism.
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Straw man. Gays and lesbians are only asking for equal treatment. Nothing more.
 
Dessi said:
In addition to that, an inordinate number of gay couples have children from previously heterosexual relationships. I personally know people who fall into the following categories:

- A lovely bisexual woman had a child with a man, they split, now she's in a relationship with another woman, they're raising the child together.

- Many gay men "play it straight" for years in hetero relationships, they have kids, but it just doesn't work out in the end. They leave their wives to start relationships with men.

- Last night I met two women who shared a story with me of how they realized they were lesbian later in life (early 30s and early 50s respectively), both had children, both are presently in stable relationships with their wives.

- Many transgender women transition later in life after having a family, most of the time this breaks up a marriage. These women may have relationships with men or other women in the future.

I believe the 2010 census indicated some 25-30% of gay couples are raising children. This percentage will include children were conceived in prior heterosexual relationships, children adopted or fostered by same-gender foster parents, and children conceived though in-vitro or surrogate mothers.

My favorite "modern family" story is the life of Christine McGinn, a transwoman who, prior to her SRS, banked her sperm. After meeting her cisgender wife, they decided to have a child, so they used her sperm have a child with her wife, their child was conceived and born quite healthy. While her wife was pregnant, Christine took hormones to promote lactation, which allowed her to nurse her own child. She and her wife were featured on Oprah's "real modern family" episode, they were such a lovely couple :)
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Homosexuals have likely existed as long as humanity has. They haven't destroyed society, or driven the species to extinction. Giving them equality and happiness can only improve things.

And it seems I have indeed missed out on a few other ways that homosexuals can have children. Thank you.
 
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