• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Propofol alarm clock!

And most recent news...the coroner has ruled definitively that Michael Jackson's death was a homicide, as a result of the drugs administered by his doctor.

Methinks the good doctor is in very deep excrement.
 
The story coming out now is rather different from the OP. The OP suggested an i/v drip of the stuff throughout the night, with the drip turned off when it was time to wake up. The news report implied an induction dose was being given just to get Jackson to sleep, presumably in the hope natural sleep would take over.

Maybe both were happening, at different times. It will be intresting to see how this develops. I just read Dogdoctor's link, and it's quite hair-raising. I had no idea the stuff was a drug of abuse. However, considering some anaesthetists I know, I might have guessed.... :nope:

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:
CSR depressants on top of benzo's is a very bad idea. Even I know that. What the hell was this doctor thinking?
 
Wolfman said:
And most recent news...the coroner has ruled definitively that Michael Jackson's death was a homicide, as a result of the drugs administered by his doctor.

Methinks the good doctor is in very deep excrement.
Click to expand...

Or, sadly now in even greater demand by certain customers, sorry, patients.
 
I'm a little confused. I've read blogs by doctors, posted after the coroner's homicide determination that say that 25mg propofol is an unremarkable dosage.

However, I've also read that the coroner has ruled homicide based on finding a lethal level of propofol in his system.

Since it has such a short half-life, are we to assume that either:

1) the doctor is lying about having only administered 25 mg?
2) 25 mg can be a lethal dose?
3) MJ may have self injected additional propofol when the dr left the room to twinkle?
 
The level of propofol might not have been deadly on its own but when combined with other CSR depressants you have the recipe for a DOA for the local emergency room.
 
dudalb said:
Anyway can we agree that the doctor who gave it to MJ is in a whole lot of trouble?
Click to expand...

I read through the affidavit requesting a search warrant of the various doctors involved in the Jackson case.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0824091jackson1.html

Although some of the material makes Murray look bad it also sets forth what looks like the outline of his defense.

1. Some unnamed and unknown individual started MJ on propofol.
2. He was doing what he could to get MJ off the drug.
3. MJ had become so badly dependent on it that he needed it to get to sleep and so the administration of some propofol was justified as part of the long term program to get MJ off the drug.

So, if we are talking criminally, I don't think Murray's conviction is a slam dunk. To be guilty criminally I think it might be necessary to show that his prescriptions were so outside medical norms and so dangerous that he could at least be found guilty of negligent homicide. Or the prosecution will need to show that Murray was the physician that provided MJ with the propofol in the first place, something that might be very hard to prove.

A problem for the prosecution of Murray is that there probably aren't standard medical procedures for dealing with a propofol addiction. So Murray was having to use his medical judgment to deal with an unusual situation. While that seems to have led to the death of MJ, MJ had serious life threatening problem that needed some kind of treatment and Murray can argue that he did the best he could for MJ and it just didn't work out.

In a civil trial Murray might be on a lot shakier ground. A comparison of Murray's medical judgment on this issue with other physicians who were potentially more skilled at dealing with this kind of addiction will be relevant and Murray might not look that good in comparison. But I'm not sure the Jackson family is going to be all that fired up to bring this to a civil trial. There is little financial gain possible for them and they might want to forgo the media circus and detailed look at MJ secrets that such a trial would result in.
 
davefoc said:
In a civil trial Murray might be on a lot shakier ground. A comparison of Murray's medical judgment on this issue with other physicians who were potentially more skilled at dealing with this kind of addiction will be relevant and Murray might not look that good in comparison. But I'm not sure the Jackson family is going to be all that fired up to bring this to a civil trial. There is little financial gain possible for them and they might want to forgo the media circus and detailed look at MJ secrets that such a trial would result in.
Click to expand...

Also such a thing could potentialy hurt MJ's immage(hard to immagine I know but possible) and so might not be in their best interests either.

I wouldn't be suprised to see him lose his licience though.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Also such a thing could potentialy hurt MJ's immage(hard to immagine I know but possible) and so might not be in their best interests either.

I wouldn't be suprised to see him lose his licience though.
Click to expand...


I didn't think about that issue. In a less publicized case I doubt that loss of license would be likely. Here in California the medical board takes years to remove a doctor's license and it seems to require overwhelming evidence of malfeasance. In a high visibility case like this it will be interesting to see how medical boards react.

My completely uninformed guess: He permanently loses the right to practice medicine in CA and Illinois removes his license temporarily.
 
Rolfe said:
Er, bump?

Isn't this big news today? I heard last night that the doctor had given Jackson 25mg (I think) of propofol at his own request that night after a number of other sedative drugs had "failed to work". That included diazepam (valium).

The doctor said he'd been giving Jackson 50mg profol every night for some time, but was concerned about dependency and had tried to discontinue it. However, stressed by the upcoming concert tour, Jackson had been unable to sleep and had begged for the drugs.

What an idiot. I mean, if you keep anaesthetising a patient with that frequency, yes you are going to kill them. On top of other drugs, yes, way to go!

It does rather show that you can pay for too much healthcare if you have the money. And that employing a doctor just to do what you want can lead to some very bad decisions.

I suspect that doctor is going to jail. Even if he doesn't, he can kiss his medical career goodbye.

Rolfe.
Click to expand...

No crap. You can bet the LA District Attonrey office is just putting the final touches on the indictment.
 
davefoc said:
I didn't think about that issue. In a less publicized case I doubt that loss of license would be likely. Here in California the medical board takes years to remove a doctor's license and it seems to require overwhelming evidence of malfeasance. In a high visibility case like this it will be interesting to see how medical boards react.

My completely uninformed guess: He permanently loses the right to practice medicine in CA and Illinois removes his license temporarily.
Click to expand...

I think the huge publicity this case will get pretty much insures that this guy will be made an example of. He will never practice medicine in the US again.
 
dudalb said:
I think the huge publicity this case will get pretty much insures that this guy will be made an example of. He will never practice medicine in the US again.
Click to expand...

Cool, a difference of opinion on an issue where the one who is right will be objectively determined by events.

So, to clarify:

dudalb is right:
Murray's home state permanently revokes his license.

It's a tie:
Murray is incapacitated or dies before his home state medical board can act.

davefoc is right:
all other scenarios
 
davefoc said:
So, if we are talking criminally, I don't think Murray's conviction is a slam dunk. To be guilty criminally I think it might be necessary to show that his prescriptions were so outside medical norms and so dangerous that he could at least be found guilty of negligent homicide. Or the prosecution will need to show that Murray was the physician that provided MJ with the propofol in the first place, something that might be very hard to prove.
Click to expand...

Good points. I read in The New York Times today that Murray didn't call 911 until 85 minutes after Jackson's collapse. That won't bode well in his favor.
 
Alt+F4 said:
Good points. I read in The New York Times today that Murray didn't call 911 until 85 minutes after Jackson's collapse. That won't bode well in his favor.
Click to expand...

I have to go, but I tried to pin that issue down from the search warrant affidavit I linked to.

No matter what there is some questionable stuff there. He says he discovered that MJ was in trouble at about 11PM but then he is involved in at least two long (47 minutes) conversations on the phone before (I think) 911 was called. He might argue that his recollection of 11pm was in error and that it was somewhat later. And he might argue that he was making his best effort to get informed opinions about what should be done. He seems to have made an effort to get help from people in the house immediately after he discovered the problem.
 
For those interested, the wiki summary on this drug is quite informative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propofol

After I read the news article, I remained puzzled at why the case is being called homicide by the coroner. We have partial information, but it appears that the doctor wasn't trying to kill MJ. Is the charge is tending toward negligent homicide due to over medication, or some such linkage?

Not that I am losing any sleep over this (ba dump, tsch!)

Thanks for the links on the addictive issues, very sobering.

In his experience, Dr. Manejwala said, nearly every propofol addict started injecting to overcome persistent insomnia. That aspect of the medication fits neatly with the link both Drs. Manejwala and Earley have observed between propofol abuse and a history of trauma. “One of the hallmark symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder [PTSD] is hyperarousal. Folks with PTSD want to block that out,” Dr. Manejwala said.

What’s puzzling, experts said, is the strength of the connection. “I don’t know of any other drug where the perceived incidence of trauma, particularly of sexual trauma [in abusers], is so high,” Dr. Manejwala said. “It’s really quite remarkable.”
Click to expand...


DR
 
Last edited:
Darth Rotor said:
For those interested, the wiki summary on this drug is quite informative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propofol

After I read the news article, I remained puzzled at why the case is being called homicide by the coroner. We have partial information, but it appears that the doctor wasn't trying to kill MJ. Is the charge is tending toward negligent homicide due to over medication, or some such linkage?

Not that I am losing any sleep over this (ba dump, tsch!)

Thanks for the links on the addictive issues, very sobering.

DR
Click to expand...

They explained this on NPR this morning. Homocide when the coroner uses the term means death through the actions of another.

link

Professor LAURIE LEVINSON (Criminal Law, Loyola Law School): Homicide simply means death at the hands of another. It's certainly not the same as accusing anybody of a crime.

BATES: That means the person who gave Jackson the propofol isn't necessarily suspected of homicide in the sense that most people understand the word.

Prof. LEVINSON: It's not the same as murder, which means an intentional killing, or even manslaughter, which would mean grossly negligent or reckless behavior
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom