Proof of Strong Atheism

my statement was qualified by seems - I don't remember that being an absolute statement, rather it's something which you say when supported by the weight of evidence - which it is.

What is supported by the evidence? Your English translation of incomplete mathematical theories?
When you say that these theories are incomplete what exactly do you mean? In what way do you regard them as incomplete? That wavefunction collapse does not occur upon measurement? That the universe is actually local? That sub-atomic particles actually can be described through Newtonian mechanics?

That they do not describe all the observations we have about the world and indeed when applied make predictions that we know to be wrong ie. they predict outcomes which are contradicted by evidence. (Common examples is when they produce "infinities".)
 
What is supported by the evidence? Your English translation of incomplete mathematical theories?


That they do not describe all the observations we have about the world and indeed when applied make predictions that we know to be wrong ie. they predict outcomes which are contradicted by evidence. (Common examples is when they produce "infinities".)

if you want to discuss the deficencies of QM, and your suggestion that therefore we should think of existence solely in terms of newtonian mechanics, then i've revived a thread in SMMT

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63854

Piggy seems to consider existence a derail.......
 
*sigh*

if you think it's a bad example, then please explain why - i have no problem with constructive criticism, and i certainly have no pretensions as to always being right. But such a quote merely comes across as rude.
Is there a way of addressing an "argument" like this that doesn't come across as rude? No offence, but its one of the stupidest things I have ever read. Here it is again in all its glory. I'll refrain from making any further comment on it:

But the time it takes for light to travel from an object which we view to our photoreceptors means that we don't see what is there - but what was there at some moment in the past. So a phenomenal reality must necessitate existence as a construct of the human mind.
 
if you want to discuss the deficencies of QM, and your suggestion that therefore we should think of existence solely in terms of newtonian mechanics, then i've revived a thread in SMMT

...snip...

Please point out where I have ever said that we should think of "existence solely in terms of Newtonian mechanics" or something similar.

My point was that your claim that it seems deficient to state that we should define existence or non-existence rests on nothing more then an English translation of theories (which also brings into it many assumptions not in the original mathematical theories) that we know at best are incomplete would at the most generous seem rather deficient in itself.
 
What Is Existence?

In the hopes that we can get off of* this detour, let me say what it means, and what it doesn't mean, to exist or to be real, for the purposes of the OP.

Briefly put, reality does not depend on my opinion of it, or my thinking about it -- caveat: my thoughts are real, and it's possible to detect brain activity associated with thought, but the fact of their existence does not depend on my opinion about them. Reality, while it includes my thoughts and dreams and such, does not change at my whim.

The distinction between the idea of a thing and the thing itself is crucial to our discussion. There is no doubt that ideas of God, concepts of God, exist. But since theists do not contend that God is merely an idea in their heads, but something which is and which acts in the wider world, then we do not need to concern ourselves with the reality -- the "thinginess" -- of thought itself; that is irrelevant here.

There are many things we have not detected, and it seems there are things we cannot detect in principle, such as things outside the "light cone" which defines the limits of our perception of the universe.

So what about these things? What statements can be made? Do we have to fall into the trap of either denying their reality because we can't detect them, or positing that any-and-everything could exist in this space?

No, we don't. We can use a simple process to determine what must be there, what could possibly (though not necessarily) be there, and what cannot be there. We take what we know, and we deduce.

If verified models of the world (in other words, theories that have been thoroughly tested, such as atomic-based chemistry) require that a thing exist in spaces we haven't explored, then we posit that this thing is real, even if we haven't found a way to view it yet.

If a thing is proposed, and it does not violate what we know about the world, and there is no fatal objection to the proposal -- e.g., it is not self-contradictory, or fatally vague, or mere gibberish, etc. -- then we are left saying "maybe". Not too satisfying, perhaps, but meaningful, and what else can we do?

If the thing proposed does violate what we know to be true (not what we merely assume, or deduce from incomplete information), then it's unreasonable to assert its potential existence merely on the grounds that we don't know everything or haven't looked everywhere.

Also, if the proposed definition of the thing is indeed self-contradictory, or so vague that no meaningful statements can be made about it, or mere nonsense, then no sensible claims may be made about it at all. Therefore, a claim to existence or reality is unwarranted, so it is unreasonable to ask anyone to credit such a claim.

So what about appeals to future technology, theories, and discoveries? Or to unknown spaces or alternate realities? Our guideline here should be that a proposal which requires a "perfect hypothetical" is ungrounded, hopelessly vague, mere thought. Because such notions have no connection with known reality, claims about them relative to reality are nonsensical.

For example, if I propose that a thing which is neither energy nor matter, and which contains none of either, will at some future time come to exist in an alternate reality beyond our universe which cannot be described in terms of our physics -- is anyone obliged to declare that I might be describing something real?

At first blush, it seems that perhaps we are obliged. After all, we can't disprove such a thing.

But considering the matter more closely, it becomes apparent that no such obligation adheres. Why? Because in that barrage of verbiage, I have not described anything at all. It is a purely negative definition, a non-thing in a non-space at a non-time. The term "real" loses any and all meaning with reference to such a concept.

In order to be considered a candidate for potential existence, a thing must have at least a toe-hold in reality as we know it.

Now, I have a simple, but serious, request: All definitions are slippery. So please, let's not get into hair-splitting over this definition, unless the objection has a direct bearing on the OP which can be explained. Thanks.

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*Yes, I say "off of". I'm from the South. I also want to know where things "are at". We love prepositions down here. We use them like spice. We create glorious phrases like "He was way on up out ahead of everybody" and "Get on down from up on top of there." We also look "up under" the bed for things we've lost, and tell people to go "up under" the overpass when we give directions.
 
Is there a way of addressing an "argument" like this that doesn't come across as rude? No offence, but its one of the stupidest things I have ever read. Here it is again in all its glory. I'll refrain from making any further comment on it:

well offense taken. if you regard it as stupid then i would be genuinely interested as to why. It is certainly true that we see what existed at some point in the past and not what actually exists now. the greater the distance the light has travelled, the greater the discrepancy. Indeed, when we look up at the night sky the stars we see may no longer exist.

if the computer screen is about a foot away from you, then you are seeing it as it existed a billionth of a second ago, across the room things are as they were around 10 billionths of a second ago, the sun is as it was 8 minutes ago - and stars visible with the naked eye are seen as they existed roughly from a few years to 10,000years ago.

Indeed special relativity takes this further - 2 observers in relative motion have different nows - single moments in time, from each other's perspective that are different. Which leads to the rather amazing notion that observers moving relative to each other have different conceptions of what exists at a given moment - and thus have different conceptions of reality.

I have sent a PM - as this will be the last time i post in this thread. i don't want to be accused of further derailing from what piggy wants to discuss :) . Many thanks.
 
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the stars i see in the sky may well not actually be there.
That's as maybe, but the determining factor between what we call "subjective" and "objective" reality is not just whether you see the stars in the sky, but also whether another sees the same stars you do. It is perfectly feasible to take a description (with accompanying diagrams) of various constellations written by someone you've never met in person, possibly before you were even born, look up at the night sky, and observe for yourself those same constellations. You can readily corroborate the description, simply by performing the same actions (in this case, looking up at a clear night sky).

The basic principle of empirical observation, of "objective" reality, is, crudely put, "you can believe what you see, as long as I can see the same thing." You can claim to have perceived the presence of god, but if I was in the same place, at the same time, doing the same thing, and I truthfully state that I didn't share your perceptions, your perceptions remain uncorroborated. Sure, you say, but how can it be established that I'm not lying about not sharing your perception? Admittedly, it cannot. Instead, a better indicator is to compare testimonies of people who claim to have perceived the same thing, and see if they match.

Say, for example, that several thousand Catholics attend an open-air mass conducted by the Pope, and many of them claim to have seen a vision of the Virgin Mary; not an unheard of phenomenon, especially in extreme heat. But what's always lacking is a concerted effort to see if the testimonies corroborate each other, such as seeing if they agree on a physical description of the supposed Virgin Mary, and whether the descriptions of her actions match beyond vague generalities. If this were ever done, I doubt the "witness" statements would be consistent. By contrast, ask several people to describe Orion or Ursa Major, and you won't get too much variation.

Moreover, any partial consistency among the aforementioned Catholics would be suspect, as there's a sizeable catalogue of imagery of the Virgin Mary, and thus many people have a preconceived notion of what the Virgin Mary should look like. There is a similar problem with any supposed manifestation of the divine: the people who claim in this day and age to have undergone such experiences are more than likely to have seen, read or heard descriptions of others, and are simply copying those.
 
In all fairness, andyandy does have a point: Between the time the light left the distant stars and the time we receive it, the stars have evolved, some obliterated, others collapsed. However, the lack lack of temporal concurrence is not controversial when observing space-time. We can only observe the stars due to the photons reaching us - with no transfer of information (a star no longer emitting photons), we no longer make the observation and we can then no longer make any statements about that particular star. We're basically stuck with having to observe with a delay due to the finite speed of information transfer. Nothing controversial there.
 
In all fairness, andyandy does have a point: Between the time the light left the distant stars and the time we receive it, the stars have evolved, some obliterated, others collapsed.
No, he doesn't have a point, b/c he moves from there to a non-sequitur about existence therefore being a construct of the human mind.
 
No, he doesn't have a point, b/c he moves from there to a non-sequitur about existence therefore being a construct of the human mind.

i thought you wanted me to quit this thread....What with it being a derail and all that..... we can carry on discussing it if you want :)
 
i thought you wanted me to quit this thread....What with it being a derail and all that..... we can carry on discussing it if you want :)
I don't want anyone to quit the thread. I do want irrelevant topics, such as QM, such as pure philosophy, to be taken elsewhere.

I have made a rather detailed post regarding the topic of existence, because it's true that understanding what is meant and not meant by this term is relevant.

My response to AWB was to point out that your earlier comments are indeed irrelevant, and based on a non-sequitur.
 
In all fairness, andyandy does have a point: Between the time the light left the distant stars and the time we receive it, the stars have evolved, some obliterated, others collapsed.
To elaborate on Piggy's point, what andyandy was disputing was not whether the stars are there now, but whether they were ever there at all. In other words, the question was whether the photons striking his retina "objectively" exist, or are merely a figment of his imagination.
 
Piggy,

Having read your reply to my post as well as that of Euromutt, I will concede that I mistook what I thought was andyandy's point, which wasn't relevant to the OP anyway.

Carry on, gentlemen. It's a very interesting thread and I have not yet seen anyone effectively countering Piggy's proof. BTW, I do share the view "god theory" commands no special consideration over any other nonsensical, redundant and/or self-contradictory concept - the concept of god(s) is a non-starter.
 
To elaborate on Piggy's point, what andyandy was disputing was not whether the stars are there now, but whether they were ever there at all. In other words, the question was whether the photons striking his retina "objectively" exist, or are merely a figment of his imagination.

er....no i wasn't :)

"So a phenomenal reality must necessitate existence as a construct of the human mind."

was a criticism of a framework in which existence is described solely through an individual's perception. There is an insufficiency of a phenomenal framework to explain existence. A phenomenon is an observable event - and as such if we centre existence around that which we see (or more broadly sense) then this (for the reasons given before), is insufficient to truly describe that which exists. I'm not claiming that nothing exists - but that that which we perceive as existing at any moment in time is a construct of what existed at some moment in the past.
Therefore the notion of how to describe "existence" is more complicated than simply anthropo-centric phenomenon sensation.

Indeed special relativity takes this further - 2 observers in relative motion have different nows - single moments in time, from each other's perspective that are different. Which leads to the notion that observers moving relative to each other have different conceptions of what exists at a given moment - and thus have different conceptions of reality.

In basic terms it requires us to appreciate that slices of spacetime depicting now for two observers in relative motion will be orientated at slightly different angles. If the observers are nearby this will have hardly any effect. But tiny angles will generate large separations between slices over large distances. And for slices of spacetime a large deviation between slices means a significant disagreement over events that the observers consider to happening now. The two observers' conception of reality - their freeze-framed notion of what exists now are both equally valid

The extension of this is that reality excompasses all of events in spacetime - and as such events regardless of perspective just are - and as such the perspective from which an observer perceives an event is just one slice of the spacetime loaf.

One more example.

Chewie lives on a planet 10 billion light years from earth. You and Chewie are not moving relative to one another (for simplicity ignoring planetry motion etc.) Because you are at rest, you and chewie agree fully on issues of space and time - your spacetime slices are the same, your now lists coincide. Chewie goes for a walk - in a direction directly away from you. This change in Chewie's motion means that his conception of now will rotate slightly. This difference whilst minute over short distances, is amplified through the 10 billion light year distance. So his now and your now are no longer the same.
If chewie runs away from you at a rate of 10mph the events on earth that correspond to his now are events that happened 150 years ago. Given suitable direction and motion, Elvis, Nero, Lincoln or someone born way into what you call the future will belong to his now list.

Chewie's concept of reality - his concept of what exists now is every bit as real for him as our conception of reality is for us. If we regard reality as a freeze frame image of phenomenom sensation, then reality must therefore encompass all the events in spacetime. Past, present and future may appear distinct - but as Einstein pointed out, this distinction is an illusion.....

perhaps that is the conclusion that we should reach with regards to existence based on an individual's perception of reality - that it is deficient because it does only represent one slice of the spacetime loaf - if reality encompasses all the events in spacetime, then it is not sufficient to describe existence solely from the perspective of one individual's perception.

*i have been trying to avoid posting on this, but all the posts since i left the thread have been on existence anyway :)

*some sections (like chewie) taken from Fabric of the Cosmos.*
 
"So a phenomenal reality must necessitate existence as a construct of the human mind."

was a criticism of a framework in which existence is described solely through an individual's perception. There is an insufficiency of a phenomenal framework to explain existence. A phenomenon is an observable event - and as such if we centre existence around that which we see (or more broadly sense) then this (for the reasons given before), is insufficient to truly describe that which exists.
Well, there's your mistake.

First, a phenomenon is anything that is or that happens, regardless of whether its perceived.

Phenomenal reality consists of what is and what happens, regardless of what I think about it.

It's the opposite of what you're saying it is.

As we learn about the universe, our understanding of phenomenal reality increases. This is only possible because phenomenal reality exists outside us and was always there. It doesn't pop into being as we look for it, or change as we change our minds.

Consider this M-W definition of phenomenal

relating to or being a phenomenon : as a : known through the senses rather than through thought or intuition b : concerned with phenomena rather than with hypotheses

In other words, "phenomenal" is distinct from "intuitive" or "hypothetical".

Of course we know what we know about phenomena through our senses. That's trivial.

So perhaps I didn't express myself well, or perhaps we're using different definitions of the term phenomenal. If so, and we agree, then let's drop this.

If not, how does this relate to God and the OP? If it does, please explain. If it doesn't, let's move on.

Indeed special relativity takes this further - 2 observers in relative motion have different nows - single moments in time, from each other's perspective that are different. Which leads to the notion that observers moving relative to each other have different conceptions of what exists at a given moment - and thus have different conceptions of reality.
And these different perceptions are entirely dependent on external (phenomenal) reality. Their sensory frames of reference, their experiential worlds, are generated by their minds. But reality is not.

The extension of this is that reality excompasses all of events in spacetime - and as such events regardless of perspective just are - and as such the perspective from which an observer perceives an event is just one slice of the spacetime loaf.
How is this different from what I've said in my definition of reality?

Perhaps you're using some philosophical definition -- maybe there's a school of phenominalism or something?

Reality is this "spacetime loaf".

If we're agreed, can we end the detour?
 
So perhaps I didn't express myself well, or perhaps we're using different definitions of the term phenomenal. If so, and we agree, then let's drop this.

Ok, we appear to be using rather different interpretations of the term :D

Reality is this "spacetime loaf".

If we're agreed, can we end the detour?

agreed......detour ended. I'll let you get back to God :)
 
Ok, we appear to be using rather different interpretations of the term

agreed......detour ended. I'll let you get back to God
Thanks. I'm glad we're not at loggerheads over this after all. Sorry I got snippy.
 

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