Proof of Immortality, VII

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Both the text and metatext of Jabba's argument requires and depend on, not just take advantage of, assuming he's correct before he is correct and than using the fact that he is correct as evidence that his is correct.

It's a special kind of begged, circular argument. In all his threads here, Jabba essentially tries to cajole his critics to agree, before any actual debate ensues, that he is correct on any given point as a matter of definition rather than of facts and inference. That is, he tries to foist his argument at the outset in the form of a definition and then tries to trick someone into agreeing with the definition and thereby obviating debate. He claims his conclusion must follow inevitably if you but agree that his definitions are correct. He characterizes what he's doing as "agreeing on terms before we start." This lulls his more inattentive critics into thinking he's doing nothing more than setting ground rules when he's really trying his whole case as a preliminary motion.

This is why his argument requires so frequent a change in nomenclature, which he disguises as "communication problems" or his own alleged difficulty in finding the right words. As the facts show over time, these changes in nomenclature occur at the peaks of opposition to his foisting. As soon as it is clear his critics have settled upon an interpretation and analysis of his latest wordplay, he upends the table and insists on new cryptic names ("...what I'll call SSA"), catch phrases ("But it wouldn't bring ME back to life!") and so forth. That's why materialism -- which is a reasonably well-formed concept -- is so constantly shuttered behind Jabba's own homegrown acronyms, terms, and abbreviations. Today materialism is known as "NR" for the "non-religious" hypothesis. That doesn't inherently mean anything while "materialism" does.

Jabba does this so that he can, from time to time, attempt to redefine the language of the debate in terms of his own desired meanings. He wants to stop the trial and go back to change all his preliminary motions to things the court won't have tested. Similarly "experience" is the new "data," and includes -- if his critics would have it -- the notion of an individualized entity separate from the organism (i.e., a soul). And thus, just like Perry Mason, he hopes to win the trial in the preliminary hearing by fiat-definitions -- rulings in limine -- that preclude all the anticipated rebuttals and make it so it's simply impossible for him to lose regardless of how the facts look.

He's latched on to "Bayesian" because he understands it just enough to think it means after the fact reasoning ala the Texas Sharpshooter is valid...

Perhaps that, but certainly also because he understands just enough to think that allowing "subjective information" in the model means he can just shove whatever numbers he wants in for the priors and the likelihoods and that the result must mean something his critics are bound to accept. That's the common application of Bayesian methods in fringe argumentation. Fringe claimants misunderstand what Bayesians mean by "subjective information." Then they usually also go on to ignore the degrees of freedom in their model and consider that although it's flapping in the breeze, so to speak, it momentarily pointed in the direction they desired and so we have to consider it proof.

...and since he got somewhere he thinks he is winning he refuses to learn anything else lest it take him to somewhere else.

His real purpose here is to show the world that skeptical thinking is inferior, and that individual skeptics are no match for his superior "holistic" intellect. There's really no point anymore, aside from respecting the MA, to pretending this isn't anything more than an attention-grabbing ego-reinforcement exercise. It's not so much that he thinks he's winning. He admitted both in this debate and in his Shroud debate that he had lost the debate on the merits. It's more about assigning blame for the loss in his mind: Jabba wants to pretend he would have won if not for the treachery of his critics (in one version) who dismiss all his good evidence with fingers in ears; or the supposed unsophistication displayed by everyone else who just can't appreciate his "holistic" genius.
 
It bears repeating that Jabba came up with this idea when he was a teenager, so there's some reason to expect it to be based on angsty teenage modes of thought. But there's no reason to expect such modes of thought to have persisted well into a person's autumn years. Jabba is, as I understand, a septuagenarian and should have long ago forsaken such puerile nonsense.

Well, you know what they say: you can be young only once, but you can remain immature forever.
 
Let's not over think this. Jabba firmly believes his sense of self, his soul, is separable from his physical self. It is inconceivable to him that it could be simply an illusion created by a functioning brain.

True, I mean the entire tone of this entire half decade long trainwreck is "I can't possibly be wrong and that's completely obvious to me, ergo any argument that disproves me has to be wrong, even if I can't come up with a coherent argument why."

But that's the parcel and post message of 99% of bad argumentatives and even they have to pretend to advance and acknowledge counter arguments.

There's still a pretentious undercurrent to Jabba's routine, that superior, speaking down to, teacher and student vibe that says Jabba is going at this under the assumption that we all, in our heart of hearts, agree with him but are just too stubborn to admit we are wrong or too blinded by our "non-holistic" thinking to see that we are wrong.

Again in the story Jabba's trying to write he doesn't convince us he's right in any traditional sense of the term, he gets us to admit we knew the truth all along and just needed him to show us the way.

Plenty of Woo Slingers try to take on the persona of the Wise Old Man on the Mountain, spouting meaningless Zen Koan platitudes until the students have that "Eureka" moment where they realize they've been being taught some grand truth the entire time, just few develop it into full on character sheets the way Jabba has.

He stills sees himself as Yoda or Mr. Miyaga repeating "Wax On, Wax Off" over and over until the pupil realizes that is code for some amazing breakthrough.

Jabba is frustrated that his students haven't had their lightbulb moment yet. He doesn't understand why we can't lift the X-Wing yet when it's so easy for him.

I mean jeez why can't we just get it?

It's a special kind of begged, circular argument. In all his threads here, Jabba essentially tries to cajole his critics to agree, before any actual debate ensues, that he is correct on any given point as a matter of definition rather than of facts and inference. That is, he tries to foist his argument at the outset in the form of a definition and then tries to trick someone into agreeing with the definition and thereby obviating debate. He claims his conclusion must follow inevitably if you but agree that his definitions are correct. He characterizes what he's doing as "agreeing on terms before we start." This lulls his more inattentive critics into thinking he's doing nothing more than setting ground rules when he's really trying his whole case as a preliminary motion.

This is why his argument requires so frequent a change in nomenclature, which he disguises as "communication problems" or his own alleged difficulty in finding the right words. As the facts show over time, these changes in nomenclature occur at the peaks of opposition to his foisting. As soon as it is clear his critics have settled upon an interpretation and analysis of his latest wordplay, he upends the table and insists on new cryptic names ("...what I'll call SSA"), catch phrases ("But it wouldn't bring ME back to life!") and so forth. That's why materialism -- which is a reasonably well-formed concept -- is so constantly shuttered behind Jabba's own homegrown acronyms, terms, and abbreviations. Today materialism is known as "NR" for the "non-religious" hypothesis. That doesn't inherently mean anything while "materialism" does.

That's why I'm really annoyed at so many people agreeing to play along with Jabba's games. We're just writing more of his story for him.

Materialism, emergent property, a dozen others... these terms mean nothing to Jabba. How many times in this thread have we spent literal months explaining a term to Jabba only for Jabba to word his nonsense into those terms but with no actual change to the meat of his argument. In his head he's helping us by putting his grand truth into our language. We're just writing his trite parables and metaphors for him. We're drafting that scene in every movie with a "Wise Old Man" character where the mentor gets through to student by phrasing something in "their language."

He sees us a thick, narrow minded class that needs to be tricked into realizing our own potential.

In his head we're just making the moment in the story where the background music swells and the camera racks into soft focus as our eyes widen with realization and Jabba gives a knowing nod all that more dramatic and meaningful.

Perhaps that, but certainly also because he understands just enough to think that allowing "subjective information" in the model means he can just shove whatever numbers he wants in for the priors and the likelihoods and that the result must mean something his critics are bound to accept. That's the common application of Bayesian methods in fringe argumentation. Fringe claimants misunderstand what Bayesians mean by "subjective information." Then they usually also go on to ignore the degrees of freedom in their model and consider that although it's flapping in the breeze, so to speak, it momentarily pointed in the direction they desired and so we have to consider it proof.

His real purpose here is to show the world that skeptical thinking is inferior, and that individual skeptics are no match for his superior "holistic" intellect. There's really no point anymore, aside from respecting the MA, to pretending this isn't anything more than an attention-grabbing ego-reinforcement exercise. It's not so much that he thinks he's winning. He admitted both in this debate and in his Shroud debate that he had lost the debate on the merits. It's more about assigning blame for the loss in his mind: Jabba wants to pretend he would have won if not for the treachery of his critics (in one version) who dismiss all his good evidence with fingers in ears; or the supposed unsophistication displayed by everyone else who just can't appreciate his "holistic" genius.

Which is were, to me at least, this absolute death spiral achieves its true meta-fascination.

I've hit on this before but stripped of all its nonsense literally billions of people believe exactly what Jabba does, that he is not just his body but some special separate distinct "thing" that will not die, it will be reincarnated or go to heaven or whatever. Even without Jabba admitting it multiple times this is just a religious soul, one of the most common, if not THE most common, belief in mankind's history.

The question for us at this point is why simple religious faith, the kind that sustains again billions of people, isn't good enough for Jabba, I've pointed out the absolute absurdity of the fact that if at any point Jabba had just played the "Faith" card in this discussion we would have been in a corner. People have been arguing for and against faith as a concept in some form since probably before we were literally human.

I've seen plenty of people who are uncomfortable with their own faith, that have a problem thinking of it in purely faith based terms and have to pretend they have intellectual reasons for it, but never to this degree. I've never seen a purely faith based conclusion trying to reverse engineer itself to this degree.

It's like Jabba is trying to codify apologetics into something concrete and distinct from the thing it is apologizing for.

It's... weird to say the least.
 
It's like Jabba is trying to codify apologetics into something concrete and distinct from the thing it is apologizing for.

It's... weird to say the least.

It's certainly a unique approach. Overtly deceptive, but unique.

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Let's not over think this. Jabba firmly believes his sense of self, his soul, is separable from his physical self. It is inconceivable to him that it could be simply an illusion created by a functioning brain.

It is inconceivable to him he doesn't have an identity separate from his physical self.

And that is why he does not accept the arguments of his critics. They all propose a situation that is truly inconceivable to him, so he can only ignore them.


There's also the issue that the part of his argument that makes his existence under H infinitely unlikely, the bit that involves his particular soul having been somehow selected from an infinite number of "potential" souls, only applies to hypotheses under which souls exist. He therefore has to insert souls into the materialist model.

His argument "disproves" hypotheses under which souls exist. Remarkably, he doesn't see this as an impediment to using it to prove that he has an immortal soul.
 
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In my latest presentation, the materialistic model is represented by "NR." The experience to which we're all referring is represented by "E." How am I improperly representing NR?

I bolded the parts that misrepresent the materialist hypothesis:

...
10. The likelihood of drawing a particular sample from a particular population has mathematical implications re the likelihood that a particular sample was, in fact, drawn from that population… You might want to read that again…
11. Or, in other words, the probability of a hypothesis being true is affected by the likelihood of samples actually drawn from the involved population — given that hypothesis.
12. The thing is, we have the mathematical right to apply this logic to our own expected mortality (the hypothesis)…
13. According to the typical, non-religious model of reality, each of us is temporary and singular — at best. If we ever live, we won’t live long, and we’ll do it only once.
14. By "we," I mean we "selves" or senses of self" or "specific self-awarenesses" (SSA) or even "souls" (if "soul' isn't defined as immortal) -- in other words, what reincarnationists think keep coming back to life...

Dave,
- Re #10, I don't understand how that misrepresents the materialist hypothesis.
- Re #13, I think you've accepted (following your materialist hypothesis) that if your particular sperm cell had not met your particular ovum, you would never be here. IOW, I think you've accepted that you didn't have to ever exist.
 
I don't understand how that misrepresents the materialist hypothesis.

There's no population in materialism, in the sense you mean in your argument. Materialism is not a lottery.

...that if your particular sperm cell had not met your particular ovum, you would never be here.

That does not create a countable pool of "potentials" for humans, but then not also for Volkswagens and mountains. You're the one trying to cast materialism as being a "sperm and ovum" proposition. That makes it sound like potentiality would only apply to living beings. Under materialism, living beings and inanimate objects are governed by the same principles.
 
Dave,
- Re #10, I don't understand how that misrepresents the materialist hypothesis.

There is no pool. A 'pool' means a finite, predetermined number/amount of something. You are not predetermined.

- Re #13, I think you've accepted (following your materialist hypothesis) that if your particular sperm cell had not met your particular ovum, you would never be here. IOW, I think you've accepted that you didn't have to ever exist.

Irrelevant. Of course, I didn't have to exist. I can't think of any thing that has to exist. But I do exist (even if you ignore me ;) ).

Hans
 
Dave,
- Re #10, I don't understand how that misrepresents the materialist hypothesis.

The materialist hypothesis doesn't involve drawing anything from a population.

- Re #13, I think you've accepted (following your materialist hypothesis) that if your particular sperm cell had not met your particular ovum, you would never be here. IOW, I think you've accepted that you didn't have to ever exist.

Which means there would be no "I" to have any number of lives.
 
Dave,
- Re #10, I don't understand how that misrepresents the materialist hypothesis.

Pull the other one, it has bells on.

Dave,
- Re #13, I think you've accepted (following your materialist hypothesis) that if your particular sperm cell had not met your particular ovum, you would never be here. IOW, I think you've accepted that you didn't have to ever exist.

So?

What meaning do you derive from that assertion?
 
Dave,
- Re #10, I don't understand how that misrepresents the materialist hypothesis.
I think you agree that every time you declare what the materialist hypothesis is, you deliberately misrepresent it.

- Re #13, I think you've accepted (following your materialist hypothesis) that if your particular sperm cell had not met your particular ovum, you would never be here. IOW, I think you've accepted that you didn't have to ever exist.
Sorry but you just can't be trusted to make words have innocent meanings. What do YOU mean when you say "you" and "your" in the above sentences? Do you mean the physical material being or do you mean the immaterial PROCESS OF A sense of self?
 
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Dave,
- Re #10, I don't understand how that misrepresents the materialist hypothesis.
- Re #13, I think you've accepted (following your materialist hypothesis) that if your particular sperm cell had not met your particular ovum, you would never be here. IOW, I think you've accepted that you didn't have to ever exist.

It’s almost like you haven’t even read the thread!

- The self is a process generated within the working brain, not a separate entity that is drawn from a pool of “potential selves”.

- The only self you could be is the one you are. If your parents didn’t have sex when they did, you wouldn’t be here. There’s nothing about this that indicates that anyone had to exist. Nor does it’s likelihood or lack thereof say anything about how a process could continue when the parts that give rise to it stop functioning.

All of which will, of course, be ignored by Jabba. But not by any unbiased viewers.
 
- Re #13, I think you've accepted (following your materialist hypothesis) that if your particular sperm cell had not met your particular ovum, you would never be here. IOW, I think you've accepted that you didn't have to ever exist.


Jabba -

You're using the word "you" wrong. It's true that the sperm and ovum were necessary conditions to bring us to the present day, but that sperm/ovum combination did not create "you".

What they created was a functioning neurosystem. It changed every day - even every moment. The person born is not the person alive today. Heck, the person ten minutes ago isn't the same person now.

The sense of self is a process. It wasn't born any more than "going 60 mph" was born the first time you took your new car onto the highway.

"You" is not a discrete, countable entity. Stop pretending it is.
 
I think you agree that every time you declare what the materialist hypothesis is, you deliberately misrepresent it.

I think Jabba agrees with you that he deliberately misrepresents the materialist hypothesis.
 
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I think Jabba agrees with you that he deliberately misrepresents the materialist hypothesis.

I'm not sure you've found the right word there. But, I do think we're talking about the same action, so I don't think we have to agree upon exactly what to call it, and can move on to understanding how Jabba's deliberately distorting materialism.

Dave
 
I'm not sure you've found the right word there. But, I do think we're talking about the same action, so I don't think we have to agree upon exactly what to call it, and can move on to understanding how Jabba's deliberately distorting materialism.

Dave

I just want to be sure we're talking about the same toupee/experience of deliberately misrepresenting materialism or, what I'm caling DMM.
 
Well, not forever. ;)



If one dies while immature does that mean one is eternally immature?

How does one describe the maturity of a rotting corpse?

How do we classify the stillborn, such as miscarriages and Jabba’s attempts at logic?
 
Let's not over think this. Jabba firmly believes his sense of self, his soul, is separable from his physical self. It is inconceivable to him that it could be simply an illusion created by a functioning brain.

It is inconceivable to him he doesn't have an identity separate from his physical self.

And that is why he does not accept the arguments of his critics. They all propose a situation that is truly inconceivable to him, so he can only ignore them.

But surely that doesn't matter. If Jabba wishes to mathematically describe the materialist position, he must describe the materialist position as it is, not some mutant version of it, regardless of whether or not he accepts materialism.
 
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