Proof of Immortality, VII

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So to sum up: Jabba's argument is bad, his formula is bad, he doesn't grasp key concepts relevant to what he's trying to do, he doesn't honestly engage the other posters, he won't focus on the important flaws in his argument, this conversation is never going anywhere, if it did somehow go somewhere it still wouldn't prove anything and if it did magically prove something all it would prove is something useless.

Thank you -- an excellent and highly bookmarkable summary. Sadly, you're not the first to reach these same conclusions independently. As much as Jabba wants to lay blame for his failure at the feet of his critics here, there really isn't much objectively to support that.
 
He does, but my point is that I don't think it's possible to do that. "Now" has little meaning besides "The time at which the statement is made," which necessarily ties it to a point within the lifetime of the person making the statement. "Now we are engaged in a great civil war" refers to November 1863 if it's Lincoln who states it, or 1643 if it's Oliver Cromwell who states it. What makes it "now" for Cromwell is that Cromwell was alive and speaking in 1643, while Lincoln was not. What makes today "now" for me and Jabba is that we're both alive and speaking. I can't use "now" in a direct way without it referring to a time when I'm alive. Paradoxically Jabba cites the ability of long-dead people to invoke the concept of "now" to refer to their time as justification for its being able to represent any point in time.

It's a typical Jabba wordplay argument.

In order for "now" to work in Jabba's argument the way he wants it to, he will have to define it in terms other than referring to a point in his lifetime. That's the only way it could be the uniform random variable he's treating it as. But of course that's not what "now" means. What we need from Jabba is to define "now" in unambiguous terms. Only then can we properly assess whether his proof has rigor. But he won't do that. He needs the vagary of the present non-definition so that he can make it look like one thing for one purpose and other thing for another purpose. That's how all his arguments always work.
I never knew Jabba was in a movie....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNIwlRClHsQ

Dark helmet- when is now
 
Caveman seems to know what he's talking about.


Do you agree with Caveman's statement that you have failed to support your argument, and that you have "displayed a failure to present mathematics above the "not-even-wrong" level"?

ETA: In case you didn't know, Jabba, "not even wrong" isn't a compliment.
 
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Do you agree with Caveman's statement that you have failed to support your argument, and that you have "displayed a failure to present mathematics above the "not-even-wrong" level"?

ETA: In case you didn't know, Jabba, "not even wrong" isn't a compliment.
Mojo,
- Note below that Caveman has not responded to my last two assertions.




Caveman,
- I am a currently existing human self. My claim is that this event is more likely if human selves are immortal than if each potential self has only one finite life at most. Do you still disagree?

Caveman,
- (Einstein vs Bohr or Wheeler-Dewitt?)
- I'll try to do as you ask. I had revised my own expression in an attempt to make sure that my claim worked. I don't think that your attachment about "being born" is appropriate.


- Anyway, I think that P(E|I) > P(E|~I) because I currently exist and my current existence is more likely if I'm immortal than if I have only one finite life to live.

- I'll try again.
- You want me to use these meanings for these symbols.
- I = "people are immortal"
- E = "I exist"

- Unfortunately, I don't think those meanings properly express the logic of my claim. For the moment, at least, I think that the best way to express the logic of my claim involves the following meanings for E and I.
- I = I am immortal.
- E = I currently exist.
- So,
- I think that P(E|I) > P(E|~I) because E and P(E|I) > P(E|~I).,
- IOW, I think that P(E|I) > P(E|~I) because I currently exist and my current existence is more likely if I'm immortal than if I have only one finite life to live.
- So far, I can't figure out why that logic doesn't work.

- Maybe an even easier way to express the logic is that I'm much more likely to currently exist if reincarnation is real than if we each have only one finite life to live.

You both lose.

Jabba failed over 5 years to support the argument, but you also failed over 5 years to find the error (ie the unsupported assertion of "P(E|I) > P(E|~I)"). Jabba failed over 5 years to support his asserted faith (in immortal souls), but you also failed over 5 years to support your asserted faith (in materialism) and at least he doesn't go around claiming that his faith is "espoused by science". Jabba over 5 years displayed a failure to present mathematics above the "not-even-wrong" level and a persistent ineducability regarding it, you over 5 years displayed a failure to present mathematics above the "wrong" level and a persistent ineducability regarding it.

I suppose you could claim victory by some abstract debate rule where you win by default, but it's no more than the victory of the one saying "1 + 1 = 3" over the one who can't even write down a sum in the first place.

Caveman,
- I don't think you ever responded to my last argument. I still think that I'm correct with the basic idea -- and, it's just a case of getting the nuances correct...
- At least superficially, it seems like you're making a conjunction fallacy fallacy like many of the others are doing.
 
Mojo,
- Note below that Caveman has not responded to my last two assertions.

Says the one who consistently and deliberately ignore most other posters. :rolleyes:

But take heart: As someone already mentioned, Caveman may not really be ignoring you; he is just not posting at the moment.

:dl:


Hans
 
Says the one who consistently and deliberately ignore most other posters. :rolleyes:

But take heart: As someone already mentioned, Caveman may not really be ignoring you; he is just not posting at the moment.

:dl:


Hans
Hans,
- That's not funny.
- Have you counted the number of other posters, postings, nuances and insults I've encountered? What percentage of these should I be responding to?
- How much time -- per day -- should I be spending on these?
 
- How much time -- per day -- should I be spending on these?

*Very slowly* You could actually respond to what people are saying in far less time than the walls of stupid "maps" and "restating" and excuses you keep posting.

You could have answered at least one question in the exact same amount of words it took you to ask yet again what questions you should be answered.

But you won't.
 
Hans,
- That's not funny.
I thought it was poignantly hilarious.

- Have you counted the number of other posters, postings, nuances and insults I've encountered? What percentage of these should I be responding to?
You've repeated your syllogism and your claims more times than the number of posters critical to your claims. What do you think of that percentage?

- How much time -- per day -- should I be spending on these?
How much time -- per day -- do you devote to addressing the fatal flaws to your arguments? Versus the time you spend on minutia?

I think you agree with me that you are the only insulting person in the thread. Look in the mirror and change your behavior if you want different results.
 
That's not funny.

Of course it was funny. Your sorta-champion went and got himself suspended for something you told us you shouldn't allow, so now you're on your own and you have to actually fight your own battles. You're trying to make it sound like it's all a big tragedy.

Have you counted the number of other posters, postings, nuances and insults I've encountered?

Don't be such a prima donna. You haven't been insulted. You counted them for us -- you were challenged to give examples of people allegedly being rude to you, and all you could find were posts of people merely debating you. You literally think it's unfriendly for someone just to disagree with you. You are not some sort of victim here, Jabba, so quit your bellyaching, man up, and defend your proof.

What percentage of these should I be responding to?

All of them. You excused Caveman's obvious rudeness because you said he had "good points," and you seem to expect your critics to ignore the vitriol and respond to them. But then out of the other side of your mouth you excuse yourself from any responsibility to see whether your critics have good point, all on this supposedly high bar of civility you insist your critics meet.

You have a blatant, highly amusing double standard, Jabba. You must really think very little of your critics to suggest they don't notice it.

How much time -- per day -- should I be spending on these?

At least as much as I've spent giving you detailed rebuttals of your claims, with examples. You took all that, swept it aside, gave me the "Aw, shucks, Jay, I just don't get it" brush-off, and then suggested I was somehow obliged to coddle you even further.
 
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- Have you counted the number of other posters, postings, nuances and insults I've encountered? What percentage of these should I be responding to?

How about the number of insults you're dished out?

How about the perfectly respectful posts you've ignored?

Go cry a river somewhere else.
 
Hans,
- That's not funny.
- Have you counted the number of other posters, postings, nuances and insults I've encountered? What percentage of these should I be responding to?
- How much time -- per day -- should I be spending on these?

Actually, though there are a lot of posters, the questions are all pretty much the same. There are about 6 or 7 core issues you refuse to address, no matter who asks them or how many times.

Remember when 90% of us were asking over and overagain "How many going 60mph are there"? and you ignored for pages and pages and pages?

Remember that?

We do.
 
- Have you counted the number of other posters, postings, nuances and insults I've encountered? What percentage of these should I be responding to?
- How much time -- per day -- should I be spending on these?

If you want us to teach you etiquette, I'm sure there are many of us who can help. What I think we would all like to see from you, quite simply, is consistency. If you feel that rudeness invalidates a poster's contribution, you should discard the contributions of posters who rudely make points that you think support your position. If you feel that you have no duty to explain your failure to respond to every point made by every other poster, then you should not try to impose that duty on other posters. And if you choose not to behave according to a consistent set of standards - as, indeed, you do not - then you should expect not to be taken seriously.

And, of course, this is simply another sidebar to try to deflect attention to the fact that your "proof" is based on a heirarchy of fatal flaws, none of which you choose even to attempt to rectify.

Dave
 
Note below that Caveman has not responded to my last two assertions.

And he won't be, because he's suspended for a month for his incivility -- you know, one of your most important ground rules for "effective debate." The problem is not whether people are being civil. The problem is that you have a double standard for your expectations of civility.

Remember when I asked you to reconcile your proposed "friendliness" gatekeeper policy with your increasing reliance on Caveman's self-serving intercessions? While you justify your dismissal of everyone else by whining about imagined insults from them and telling them they aren't being friendly enough, you allowed Caveman to be wantonly rude and insulting on your behalf, to the point where the forum management had to act on it. Why did you allow him to do that? You say he has good points. But so do all the other people you brush off, so that's not it. You insinuate he approves of your argument. But he has said several times that your proof is hopeless. As usual, you ignore whatever is critical of you, so that part of his presentation never seems to rise to your attention.

No, let's be honest. You invite him to your party solely because he nit-picks your critics and is mean to them. That's what thread-nannies do. They just jump into whatever thread they want without reading it and go after what they think are easy targets, on flimsy and inconsequential pretexts. Their only interest is in being pedantically correct, whether it matters to anything or not. Presently that annoyance suits your purpose because it gives some of your critics someone else to talk to, and that takes the heat off you. But don't pretend that the enemy of your enemy is your friend. He too has tried to show you what's wrong with your proof, but as with all your other critics you just pretend he doesn't exist until you need him to run interference for you. You've demonstrated you don't understand or care what he has to say about your proof. And what he has to say about it isn't any more supportive than what you're getting from your other critics. So it's disingenuous of you now to stall the debate on the pretense that his input is so crucial.

Jabba, it's up to you whether we spend the rest of today and/or the next couple of days addressing your tantrums instead of your mathematical proof. You ask how you should be spending your time here? Show us you make good decisions. Hint: the pouting isn't working.

On the matter of the non-uniform distribution of human-bearing centuries across all time, it seems we have made some headway in getting you to see why that may be important. Now that you agree it can't just be ignored, can you please provide a one- or two-sentence summary of how you plan to correct your proof to account for it?

On the matter of what role "now" plays in your proof, you seem to be almost completely silent. There is a clear contradiction between parts of your argument that, on the one hand, rely upon the natural meaning of "now" and, on the other hand, suggest that "now" is (statistically speaking) a uniformly distributed random variable. We've given you examples of how "now" cannot be that variable. But the convolution you propose in your proof requires "now" to be a uniform random variable, otherwise you're computing the convolution incorrectly. This remains a fatal error in your proof. Will you please address the examples? And no, I will not remind you of what they are.
 
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Hans,
- That's not funny.
- Have you counted the number of other posters, postings, nuances and insults I've encountered? What percentage of these should I be responding to?
- How much time -- per day -- should I be spending on these?

I don't give a damn, Jabba. You can do what you want. It is still very funny that you complain when somebody seems to ignore you.

And, actually, you job can't be that hard, considering that you have been repeating the same arguments for all this time. :rolleyes:

Hans
 
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