Proof of Immortality, VI

[Mojo]

-- though, I still do believe it myself, do have some more ideas as to how to strengthen my case and do believe that a less skeptical audience would tend to "see what I mean."

Jabba, the audience here sees what you mean well enough to raise reasoned and detailed objections to your argument.

Objections that you have failed to address. You should start here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11871278&postcount=3198

 

[Belz...]

- How do you disagree so far?

How about you start making your case for your claims, and we'll tell you where we disagree. This game of only making claims and debating definitions, essentially arguing about where the starting line should be or exactly how the official should shoot the gun to begin the race, is not worth a score.

 

[Belz...]

jond,
- Yes it does. According to the materialist model, if someone reproduced my DNA after my death, the new life would look like me, but it wouldn't actually be me. I would not be brought back to life.
- The materialist model accepts that that "self" did exist, but would not return. Another self would take its place. Those two selves are not the same -- they are separate entities.

No, no, no.

First of all, they are not entities. They are processes.

Second, yes, the process in the original and the process in the copy are distinct, but that's not what you were discussing: the process and the body are not distinct. It's a nice bait-and-switch attempt, but it is far too transparent.

 

[MRC_Hans]

- OK.
- Another hypothetical: if I were able to solve the TSS problem, what more would I need to solve?

You would need to show how that had any connection what so ever with your immortality.

Hans

 

[JoeMorgue]

- I wouldn't be brought back to life in the self produced by the replica DNA. That's the difference. And that is probably the best I can do in trying to communicate what I perceive to be the difference.

The "best you can do" to explain the difference is just to state "there's a difference" over and over without expanding, explaining, or supporting.

"The difference is there is a difference" is just another way of wording "I'm right if you assume I'm right."

 

[JimOfAllTrades]

jond,
- Yes it does. According to the materialist model, if someone reproduced my DNA after my death, the new life would look like me, but it wouldn't actually be me. I would not be brought back to life.
- The materialist model accepts that that "self" did exist, but would not return. Another self would take its place. Those two selves are not the same -- they are separate entities.

The two "selves" are not entities, they are processes arising from a functioning brain and body.

If you run a computer program and get a certain result (words, graphs, music, flashing lights, whatever), then run the same computer program again an hour later on the same computer (or an identical computer) you will get the same results. The results are separate but identical.

Is a new entity created each time the program runs? No. Is there anything special or surprising in that the second time the program runs it produces the same result? No. Does anyone think either instance of the result is special simply because it is a different instance? No.

Likewise, in the materialist world, your "self" is an emergent property, a process, that comes from your physical body and experiences. It is no more special than that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Jabba a half dozen people have spent a half decade explaining all of this to you and you haven't given us the base courtesy of acting as if you are listening.

You have a match. You light it. You use this this match to light a second match. You then blow out the first match.

Which one is the "real" fire? Which one is the "first" fire.

How many "Going 60 miles per hour" are there? If I drive 60 miles per hour today and do it again tomorrow is it a new "Going 60 miles per hour?"

Or any of the questions valid? Do any of them matter? Do any of them even make sense? Of course not.

THIS HAS ALL BEEN EXPLAINED TO YOU!

I have zero faith that you will acknowledge this in the slightest.

 

[zooterkin]

jond,
- Yes it does. According to the materialist model, if someone reproduced my DNA after my death, the new life would look like me, but it wouldn't actually be me. I would not be brought back to life.

Indeed. (And, as aside, it would only probably look like you, and would be unlikely to be identical to you. Remember that so-called identical twins have the same DNA, but are not, in fact, identical.)

- The materialist model accepts that that "self" did exist, but would not return. Another self would take its place. Those two selves are not the same -- they are separate entities.

Equivocation ahoy!

The materialist model (AKA 'reality') has no place for the meaning of 'self' you keep trying to crowbar into it, to wit, 'soul'. The "sense of self" that is a feature of human consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.

 

[godless dave]

Jabba, you seem to be assuming that if there are two selves there must necessarily be a difference between them. Can you explain why you are assuming that?

 

[John Jones]

Jabba, you seem to be assuming that if there are two selves there must necessarily be a difference between them. Can you explain why you are assuming that?

This ought to be good, even if five years old and recycled.

 

[Belz...]

Jabba a half dozen people have spent a half decade explaining all of this to you and you haven't given us the base courtesy of acting as if you are listening.

You know, when you put it like that rather than just saying "five years" it's even more ridiculous. You can get a PhD in less time.

 

[Jabba]

Jabba, you seem to be assuming that if there are two selves there must necessarily be a difference between them. Can you explain why you are assuming that?

- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.

 

[godless dave]

- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.

There would be two identical brains and thus two identical selves. I'm trying to figure out what difference you think they would have. I don't think they would be different in any respect.

 

[Pixel42]

There would be two identical brains and thus two identical selves. I'm trying to figure out what difference you think they would have. I don't think they would be different in any respect.

As has been pointed out many times, the only difference would be their spacetime coordinates. Jabba seems to be unable to grasp that two things can be identical without being the same thing.

 

[Belz...]

- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.

You're leaving out the fact that, under H, the mind and the body are one and the same. The mind is not a separate entire. You have two identical but separate bodies, that's all.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You know, when you put it like that rather than just saying "five years" it's even more ridiculous. You can get a PhD in less time.

It's.... surreal. This isn't like watching paint dry, it's like just watching paint.

- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.

And as has been explained to you a thousand times what people "think" and what you "claim" doesn't mean diddly squat if you can't back it up with evidence or at the very, very least discuss it on a level beyond "I say it is so."

Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self.

Jabba do you understand that "materialist" isn't just slur you can drop at anyone who disagrees with you.

Every time a Woo Slinger tries to treat "materialist" a dirty word all I can hear is someone trying badly to make "Accepts reality" into a bad thing.

According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.

As has been pointed out many times, the only difference would be their spacetime coordinates. Jabba seems to be unable to grasp that two things can be identical without being the same thing.

And this has gotten beyond ridiculous in trying to explain to him.

Jabba an infant understands the difference between "identical" and "the same." I'm done trying to explain the difference to a grown man.

 

[godless dave]

As has been pointed out many times, the only difference would be their spacetime coordinates. Jabba seems to be unable to grasp that two things can be identical without being the same thing.

Even more confusing, he does seem to be able to grasp it as long as the things in question aren't selves.

 

[The Sparrow]

- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.

No, we say they would be separate. Like 2 orange crayons, one on the desk here, one in the drawer there. Otherwise Identical. Just separate, because, there are two of them.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Even more confusing, he does seem to be able to grasp it as long as the things in question aren't selves.

And his reason that "selves" aren't the same is just a pleading "But they wouldn't be the same."

Probably whenever Jabba gets around to writing this "roadmap" for the "neutral audience" it's all gonna be about how the big mean closed minded skeptics couldn't explain how two sets of selves would be different but conveniently leave out why they are different so the narrative is that Jabba wins.

 

[John Jones]

- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.

Jabba, this has been explained to you at least a hundred times. Every dullard on Earth (except the single obvious exception) would understand by now.