Proof of Immortality, VI

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But you haven't tried to show us that materialism is wrong. You've asked us to assume it's wrong so that you can get infinity in the denominator for P(E|H). You've asked us to assume it's wrong so we will treat your self being very unlikely differently from Mount Rainier being very unlikely.

You're asking us to assume mind-body dualism is true so that you can prove immaterial minds are immortal. I will certainly concede that mind-body dualism would allow possibilities for immortality of the mind that materialism does not. Absent any good reason to accept mind-body dualism, I have no reason to entertain any of those possibilities.

Dave,
- Do you accept that materialism might be wrong?

Sure. In OOFLam, the model you're trying to disprove, is materialism wrong?
- No.
- But I'm not asking you to assume that OOFLam is wrong, or that mind-body dualism is right. I'm just asking you to assume that there is a reasonable possibility that OOFLam is wrong.
 
Do you accept that materialism might be wrong?

Why do you think the answer will have changed since the last time you explicitly polled your critics, individually, on this question?

Materialism is a scientific theory. As a scientific theory it is, in the words of Dr Karl Popper, "forever tentative." However, as a scientific theory is may be displaced only by evidence that it is wrong -- not merely a fervent belief in something else. Your attempt at a mathematical proof is being entertained exactly the basis that it may provide such evidence. It does not, of course. But your critics are not hopelessly entrenched.

You, on the other hand, don't seem to have the slightest bit of doubt in your own beliefs. Despite acknowledging the mountain of evidence against you, and despite a clear and concise explanation of why your proof is wrong, you still think you're right. Despite having presented your theory to -- and having it been rejected by -- appropriately qualified professionals of all ideological stsripes, you still think you're right. After having frankly admitted that your belief is based in emotion, you still struggle to maintain the illusion that there can be a valid mathematical proof for it. Have you at any time entertained even the most fleeting glimmer of doubt in your beliefs? Or at this point are you just clinging to it like a drowning man to any bit of passing flotsam?
 
- No.
- But I'm not asking you to assume that OOFLam is wrong, or that mind-body dualism is right. I'm just asking you to assume that there is a reasonable possibility that OOFLam is wrong.

Ok, let's assume you're wrong. How would you go about proving you're right?
 
But I'm not asking you to assume that OOFLam is wrong, or that mind-body dualism is right. I'm just asking you to assume that there is a reasonable possibility that OOFLam is wrong.

Irrelevant. We are discussing your formulation for P(E|H). When evaluating that, you must assume that H is correct, regardless of whether you believe in it or whether your critics harbor any doubt in it. Your line of reasoning for why P(E|H) must be very small relies on concepts of mind-body dualism that H specifically rejects. Specifically, you try to make your theory of mind part of E. That is incorrect.

Some time ago I presented you with a list of individually fatal flaws in your proof. One of them was your lack of understanding of what the parts of a statistical inference were and what role they played. Another was your inappropriate interpolation of your theory as data. You know this list exists; you referred to it more than once as you contemplated using it for your own purposes. Your post today is further evidence that this list correctly refutes your proof. At this point we have to assume that your ongoing avoidance of that concise list of your errors is the deliberate result of your unwillingness to address them.
 
- No.
- But I'm not asking you to assume that OOFLam is wrong, or that mind-body dualism is right.

Then why is your value for P(E|H) based on something you call "the who, not the what"? Why is your justification for treating Mount Rainier different from a particular human self based on something you call "the who, not the what"?
 
- No.
- But I'm not asking you to assume that OOFLam is wrong, or that mind-body dualism is right. I'm just asking you to assume that there is a reasonable possibility that OOFLam is wrong.


What reason do we have to believe dualism is a possibility?

Can you argue for such a reason?

If something doesn't exist, there's usually very little reason to suspect it does.
 
- No.
- But I'm not asking you to assume that OOFLam is wrong, or that mind-body dualism is right. I'm just asking you to assume that there is a reasonable possibility that OOFLam is wrong.

We have all told you that we are willing to assume there's a possibility that OOFLam is wrong. We've all also showed you why your argument is wrong. We've also told you what it would take to prove that OOFLam is wrong. The only person here who is assuming that there is no possibility that he's wrong is you, Jabba.
 
You brought up determinism.

As already outlined, no -- you did.

Free will is like the complement to determinism.

Equivocation. What you introduced, and what has been subsequently discussed, is causal determinism. You're now trying to interpolate other forms of determinism, which are unrelated to this discussion. As far as materialism is concerned, high-order concepts such as free will are simply predicated on the various emergent properties of the brain, which we've already discussed. When evaluating materialism, free will is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. Free will is, in fact, an illusion in the face of causal determinism, which is what materialism embodies as a philosophical consequent and what you alluded to when assessing Mt Ranier. It most certainly is not the magical something you're groping for, that allegedly and definitively separates humans from everything else. Hume writes at length on this. You should avail yourself of his wisdom before trying to bludgeon your critics with the subject.
 
But you haven't tried to show us that materialism is wrong. You've asked us to assume it's wrong so that you can get infinity in the denominator for P(E|H). You've asked us to assume it's wrong so we will treat your self being very unlikely differently from Mount Rainier being very unlikely.

You're asking us to assume mind-body dualism is true so that you can prove immaterial minds are immortal. I will certainly concede that mind-body dualism would allow possibilities for immortality of the mind that materialism does not. Absent any good reason to accept mind-body dualism, I have no reason to entertain any of those possibilities.

Dave,
- Do you accept that materialism might be wrong?

Sure. In OOFLam, the model you're trying to disprove, is materialism wrong?

- No.
- But I'm not asking you to assume that OOFLam is wrong, or that mind-body dualism is right. I'm just asking you to assume that there is a reasonable possibility that OOFLam is wrong.

Then why is your value for P(E|H) based on something you call "the who, not the what"? Why is your justification for treating Mount Rainier different from a particular human self based on something you call "the who, not the what"?

Dave,
- Our discussion must be intriguing to you (you quickly respond, and you've stuck with it for a long time), but probably because you can't understand how someone can be so foolish... It's intriguing to me because I'm learning (VERY slowly) how honest debate can be so complicated -- and, the specific divergences so subtle, and difficult to understand.
- And, I probably didn't describe that quite right -- nor improve my reputation around here...
- Anyway, I don't really understand how your last question follows from my previous answer...

- The history of the Mt Rainier issue is long and troubled, and it's caught up in our difficulty in agreeing upon the meaning of "self." My use of "who" is one of my attempts to indicate what I mean by the "self."

- Back to your last question:
Then why is your value for P(E|H) based on something you call "the who, not the what"? Why is your justification for treating Mount Rainier different from a particular human self based on something you call "the who, not the what"?
- So anyway, I suspect that the following won't really answer your question -- but ... Mt Rainier doesn't have a who/self.
 
- Back to your last question:
- So anyway, I suspect that the following won't really answer your question -- but ... Mt Rainier doesn't have a who/self.

You need to decide whether the model H you're using for your calculation of P(E|H) is the materialist model, where the self is a subset of the brain, or some dualist model where the self exists separately from the brain.

If H is the materialist model then P(E|H) would be determined in a manner similar to P(E|G). Just as Mount Rainier is the result of physical processes, so is my self. If you understand the chain of cause and effect that resulted in my living brain then you understand the chain of cause and effect that resulted in my self, because they are the same thing.
 
- Back to your last question:
- So anyway, I suspect that the following won't really answer your question -- but ... Mt Rainier doesn't have a who/self.

Please re-read the responses you got on any of the dozens of previous occasions you posted this (or something equivalent), and keep re-reading them until you understand them.
 
- The history of the Mt Rainier issue is long and troubled, and it's caught up in our difficulty in agreeing upon the meaning of "self." My use of "who" is one of my attempts to indicate what I mean by the "self."

- Back to your last question:
- So anyway, I suspect that the following won't really answer your question -- but ... Mt Rainier doesn't have a who/self.

You should use the word "soul" so that you can see as easily as everyone else that that's what you're talking about.

Then you can see that you're begging the question by assuming your conclusion.
 
- That's why I'm here...

Think very carefully before you open the door to questioning your motives and behavior.

It is abundantly clear that you are not here to have your theory tested. Your behavior is far more consistent with acting out a delusion of grandeur. And this is not merely the "biased" assessment of skeptics; you were given exactly the same assessment elsewhere, where you can make no assumptions about the ideological makeup or predilection of your critics. And you selected individuals from academia whom you regarded as both unbiased and knowledgeable. They told you the same thing we're telling you -- your argument is severely broken. In the larger sense, you ignore nearly all criticism of your proof, citing flimsy excuses or making lame bids to referee the debate in your favor.

Further, you were given a concise statement of many of the things wrong with your argument, errors that are individually fatal, any one of which dooms your argument. You expressed interest in it only insofar as you could use it in a self-serving capacity. You showed no interest whatsoever in its content, and continue to pretend it doesn't exist. How can these facts possibly be consistent with your stated intent to have others tell you wherein you might be mistaken?

As you can tell, I still think I'm right.

But according to the facts, you are not right. Your proof is laughably, obviously wrong.

- This "self," or "sense of self" -- whatever you want to call it -- is something we all experience.

Yes, it is an experience. Just like love or pain or indigestion. It doesn't exist in any form separate from the entity that's experiencing it. You rely on several layers of equivocation to make it a sort of separate entity, assert it to pre-exist, and suggest that all of this is part of E and must be explained by materialism.

You don't believe that anything, including the self, is immaterial.

When evaluating P(E|H), which is what this phase of your proof is doing, belief is irrelevant. You must evaluate P(E|H) as if H were true. H is the scientific theory of materialism, in which all that is observable is caused by the behavior of the material universe.

I'm trying to show you why I believe that OOFLam is wrong.

No. You said you could prove mathematically that you had an immortal soul. Frankly it's clear you don't have the mathematics chops to do it. Your floundering around regarding division by infinity was most amusing. You really have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to mathematics of this ilk, and this has been most apparent to all your critics.

And once again "OOFLam" is something you made up. It's not something your critics espouse or are somehow obligated to defend. If your critics can be said to have an affirmative belief, it is in scientific materialism. However, you have the burden of proof.

Further, you are arguing a false dilemma. As do nearly all fringe theorists, you have turned the argument around so that the thing you need to prove is somehow a default that "logically" holds if you can cast enough aspersion on some competing theory. Showing us why you don't believe something else is a very, very far cry from proving the thing that you do believe, as you said you would do.

All these and more errors were brought to your attention in a concise, well-organized list, which you have ignored.

That belief does imply that the self is immaterial.

We stipulated that it requires something immaterial. Which is to say, if you cannot present us evidence for the existence of the immaterial, your proof fails immediately. It's been five years and all we've gotten from you is the run-around punctuated by insults. You have no evidence for the immaterial. You admitted variously at times that you have no such evidence and are unlikely to get any. And you blamed your critics for that, somehow. But the fact we're left with is that your proof fails immediately for your inability to substantiate its major premise.

I'm trying to show that what you subscribe to is wrong... So far, I'm not doing too well, but it is appropriate behavior under the circumstances.

Your behavior is in no way appropriate.

You're not doing to well because you have no evidence and your argument is severely flawed in many ways, all of which you have been repeatedly informed about. You continue to pretend otherwise, and this is both dishonest and unfair to your critics.
 
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It's intriguing to me because I'm learning (VERY slowly) how honest debate can be so complicated...

You are not engaging in honest debate.

You are using the same silly tricks that every fringe theorist attempts, up to and including insulting your critics for their supposed lack of erudition, lack of insight, and allegedly closed minds. You are falling into simple logical pitfalls that I would frankly expect an first-year philosophy student to see and avoid. You have, in the past, acted in a blatantly and admittedly dishonest fashion regarding debates at this forum.

And, I probably didn't describe that quite right -- nor improve my reputation around here...

In addition to the dozen or so fatal flaws I identified in your argument, which you still have not addressed, I outlined a number of behaviors on your part which are detrimental to your reputation not only here but elsewhere. Keep in mind that your reputation in debate is not limited to what we can discover here.

...it's caught up in our difficulty in agreeing upon the meaning of "self." My use of "who" is one of my attempts to indicate what I mean by the "self."

When evaluating P(E|H) you must use the definition of self that materialism provides. Otherwise your proof is immediately invalid. You are trying to foist a dualist interpretation of mind and body onto materialism by sneaking it into E. Dualism is not part of E. Dualism is one of many possible hypotheses that can be used to explain E, but it is not part of E and it is disallowed in H. Under H, self-awareness is simply an emergent property of the brain. The only difficulty we're having is the part where you don't realize that your critics are onto you and your foist isn't working.

Mt Rainier doesn't have a who/self.

Asked and answered repeatedly. A mountain is not self-aware, but there is no magical significance to that particular emergent property under materialism, whether for mountains or for people. As usual you are simply begging the question that there is some special, ineffable property of humans that materialism is somehow on the hook to explain.
 
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It's intriguing to me because I'm learning (VERY slowly) how honest debate can be so complicated -- and, the specific divergences so subtle, and difficult to understand.

Oh... we're back to being "oh so humble" in our mendacity....
 
You need to decide whether the model H you're using for your calculation of P(E|H) is the materialist model, where the self is a subset of the brain, or some dualist model where the self exists separately from the brain.
If H is the materialist model then P(E|H) would be determined in a manner similar to P(E|G). Just as Mount Rainier is the result of physical processes, so is my self. If you understand the chain of cause and effect that resulted in my living brain then you understand the chain of cause and effect that resulted in my self, because they are the same thing.
- My claim is that your brain and your self are not equally "trackable." My claim is that, theoretically, we can reproduce your brain; but that, we can't, even theoretically, reproduce your self.
 
- My claim is that your brain and your self are not equally "trackable." My claim is that, theoretically, we can reproduce your brain; but that, we can't, even theoretically, reproduce your self.

Does H include that claim?
 
- My claim is that your brain and your self are not equally "trackable."

It doesn't matter what you are claiming. When evaluating P(E|H), which is what you are doing here, you must reckon it as if H were true. H does not distinguish between brain and self; under materialism self-awareness is a property of the brain. It is meaningless under that auspice even to think of them as separately "trackable."

My claim is that, theoretically, we can reproduce your brain; but that, we can't, even theoretically, reproduce your self.

Materialism does not distinguish between a brain and a "self." They are one and the same in materialism. You are trying to make materialism have to explain concepts that you are borrowing from your beliefs and theories, not concept that it contains or facts that are part of the observation. You are begging the question, that question being the existence of something akin to a soul.
 
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