Proof of Immortality, VI

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Jabba said:
- Do you guys think that you experience the same thing/process that religious people call the "soul"?
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It is my position that all humans have similar experiences of self-awareness. Where we differ in interpreting how they manifest and the source.

In the materialist view the self-awareness is the result of a continuing process of biology and memory that gradually shifts with time which allows for a feeling of continuity. Trauma or drugs can radically alter this process. When the body is no longer functioning in a manner to allow this process to continue, self-awareness is either suspended (sleep or coma) or ceases (death or vegetative state). This is supported by the available evidence.

In the Big Three (Christian, Judaism and Muslim) the general view self-awareness is due to a soul which is a separate entity that occupies the body and will go to an afterlife with its memories intact to continue new existence. The soul’s station in the afterlife is based on the points accrued in life. There is no evidence to support this view point.

In Hindu they believe that something in you is reincarnated based on points accrued in life and can move up and down the karmic ladder and ultimately graduate. I don’t know if there is any memory or self identification retention posited. There is no evidence to support this view point.

I have heard of the concept of life force being eternal but indistinct in identity. When you die your energy melds with the universal ‘oneness’ and eventually will be incorporated into other beings. While this is a concept of reincarnation, there was no memory or self-identity retained. There is no evidence to support this view point.

So we do have the same sort of experience… but that does not mean that anyone can come up with a preferred theory behind it and call it equally logically consistent and supported.

I see no evidence to posit any idea other than on going process of biology and memory. The Soul, Karma and 'life energy' are believed by many but unsupported by science.
 
Jabba said:
- Do you guys think that you experience the same thing/process that religious people call the "soul"?
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Who cares? We all agree with have an experience of self. That's what we're discussing. These constant postings about what other people call it are irrelevant. They don't change the facts or the nature of the discussion, especially since we're discussing H.

Jabba said:
- Do you guys think that you experience the same thing/process that reincarnationists think comes back to life?
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Stop asking the same question over and over. You have your answers. Stop acting as if you're still setting up your argument. It's been five years. No one is fooled.
 
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Jabba said:
Dave,
- I'm not sure what you're saying. My best guess is that you're saying that you're not sure to what "self" reincarnationists are referring.
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You know exactly what he's saying.

Now: do you have any evidence that you are immortal? Is there any reason to believe that there are "potential" selves?

The answer to both those questions is obviously "no", since you've never answered them.
 
Mojo said:
Do these "reincarnationists" think that it is a thing or a process?
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And do they consider that such a thing as they believe could arise under materialism? Or must they invoke their particular beliefs? The question is extremely important because we are still under the auspices of P(E|H), which cannot require anything not allowed in H. It's one thing to ask materialists if they "believe the same thing" as reincarnationists. It's another thing to ask reincarnationists if they believe materialism is adequate to explain their particular beliefs. Clearly not. Thus it seems reasonable to propose that neither materialists nor reincarnationists would agree that P(E|H) is being computed correctly in Jabba's model. Both would likely agree that elements not from H are required to make that model work, thus the model is invalid.
 
Mojo said:
Do these "reincarnationists" think that it is a thing or a process?
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Both. Another flaw in the Jabbaverse. Reincarniloons of various flavours claim both. It is a separate thing or it is an ongoing process across lifetimes or something.

What is most interesting is that these groups avoid each other like the plague. I have only seen such competing baloney collide twice in my lifetime. Wow. I can disagree with anyone and that is all good, but that level of vitriol is something else. I have never seen anything like it.

That said, what is it that Jabba is proposing? So far, we have fundy buddhism, fundy christianity, hinduism, jainism, wicca, voodoo, all things paranormal, the list goes on.

Yet we have the shroud threads where Jabba endorses hard RCC.

Can anyone be sure at this point what Jabba really believes? Can Jabba be sure what he believes himself?
 
abaddon said:
Can anyone be sure at this point what Jabba really believes? Can Jabba be sure what he believes himself?
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I doubt it. He has no definition for soul. He keeps punting to whatever reincarnationists believe, and then hoping we'll fill in the blanks in his definition for him. He can't say what he means, and he can't say what the reincarnationists mean. It's no surprise he can't prove... whatever it is.
 
JayUtah said:
In case your question was not rhetorical, it's obvious that Jabba's argument needs to maintain the unwarranted conflation between self-awareness as the proper result of a process in materialism, and self-awareness as the soul in his model. An entity and a property are in no way the same thing. But absent his ability to prove it, he must keep up this linguistic abomination in order to press home his attack and ignore the extremely important distinction that he must know by now is a fatal error in his proof.
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Well, yes, I agree in that I believe this is exactly what he is trying to accomplish. I mostly wanted to see if he is aware that that is what he is doing, and that some of us aren't fooled in the slightest. By highlighting that particular bit of dishonestly, whether he is deliberately promoting it or not, I was hoping to focus on the core issue with his belief, and how he is attempting to support it.

Not that he is likely to ever acknowledge this...

Maybe instead of posting leading questions, hoping they further the discussion, I should type out a full exposition of my point for the "neutral audience" so Jabba has yet another excuse for not addressing the flaws in his assertions.

;)
 
Hokulele said:
Well, yes, I agree in that I believe this is exactly what he is trying to accomplish. I mostly wanted to see if he is aware that that is what he is doing, and that some of us aren't fooled in the slightest. By highlighting that particular bit of dishonestly, whether he is deliberately promoting it or not, I was hoping to focus on the core issue with his belief, and how he is attempting to support it.

Not that he is likely to ever acknowledge this...

Maybe instead of posting leading questions, hoping they further the discussion, I should type out a full exposition of my point for the "neutral audience" so Jabba has yet another excuse for not addressing the flaws in his assertions.

;)
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Except that his neutral audience doesn't exist, just like his Shroud neutral audience didn't exist. He plans to build such an audience as soon as he can, but his progress the last 5+ years is zero.

Jabba prove me wrong. You convinced no one in your shroud thread, and you have convinced no one in this thread. It's not looking too good for you.
 
godless dave said:
I don't think all people who believe in reincarnation believe in the same kind of self. I'm pretty sure Buddhists believe the self is an illusion.
I am confident we are all experiencing the self in pretty much the same way, although the nature of subjective experience means there's no way to actually know, just as nobody can be sure that everyone perceives colors the same way.
I think what I'm saying is pretty clear. But since the way The Sparrow said it is even more clear, I will just quote The Sparrow:
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Dave,
- So far, I feel sure that we (including Buddhists) are all talking about the same experience -- we just disagree about its nature. I think that Buddhists think that that experience is a delusion.
 
Waterman said:
It is my position that all humans have similar experiences of self-awareness. Where we differ in interpreting how they manifest and the source.

In the materialist view the self-awareness is the result of a continuing process of biology and memory that gradually shifts with time which allows for a feeling of continuity. Trauma or drugs can radically alter this process. When the body is no longer functioning in a manner to allow this process to continue, self-awareness is either suspended (sleep or coma) or ceases (death or vegetative state). This is supported by the available evidence.

In the Big Three (Christian, Judaism and Muslim) the general view self-awareness is due to a soul which is a separate entity that occupies the body and will go to an afterlife with its memories intact to continue new existence. The soul’s station in the afterlife is based on the points accrued in life. There is no evidence to support this view point.

In Hindu they believe that something in you is reincarnated based on points accrued in life and can move up and down the karmic ladder and ultimately graduate. I don’t know if there is any memory or self identification retention posited. There is no evidence to support this view point.

I have heard of the concept of life force being eternal but indistinct in identity. When you die your energy melds with the universal ‘oneness’ and eventually will be incorporated into other beings. While this is a concept of reincarnation, there was no memory or self-identity retained. There is no evidence to support this view point.

So we do have the same sort of experience… but that does not mean that anyone can come up with a preferred theory behind it and call it equally logically consistent and supported.

I see no evidence to posit any idea other than on going process of biology and memory. The Soul, Karma and 'life energy' are believed by many but unsupported by science.
Click to expand...
Waterman,
- I agree with everything you said except for your evaluation of the evidence -- there is evidence for the religious concepts, it's just quite questionable.
- Gotta go to dinner.
 
Jabba said:
Waterman,
- I agree with everything you said except for your evaluation of the evidence -- there is evidence for the religious concepts, it's just quite questionable.
- Gotta go to dinner.
Click to expand...

Evidence for all religious concepts? Or are you picking just the ones you favor?
 
Jabba said:
Dave,
- So far, I feel sure that we (including Buddhists) are all talking about the same experience -- we just disagree about its nature. I think that Buddhists think that that experience is a delusion.
Click to expand...

Who is "we", kemosabe?
 
Jabba at this point you are functionally having this "debate" in your head.

I ask again why we are even necessary for your "Patented debate."
 
Jabba said:
So far, I feel sure that we (including Buddhists) are all talking about the same experience
Click to expand...

Third time in two days trying to equivocate your soul's passage into E via these unilaterally foisted agreements.

we just disagree about its nature.
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No, we disagree about its cause. You think it's caused by the presence of an immortal soul, and you've claimed you could prove mathematically that this is the case. You obviously can't, but you won't let go of that belief and given your critics their due for suffering you for years.

I think that Buddhists think that that experience is a delusion.
Click to expand...

It's either an experience or a delusion. It can't really be both. But yes, Buddhism would be one of those concepts in ~H that your model doesn't account for. Buddhists don't believe in a soul or in any thing that reincarnates. But because they're not materialist, they aren't H.
 
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